1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier?

[bochen280 0]

That is why I was asking if solo landings would be any better. I live in TX but if I ever traveled to California, Hawaii, Florida or any of them non landlocked states I really love to do a water landing by myself.

I understand that at higher altitudes water is not "soft" and the impact is same as hitting concrete... but in this case had I landed in water there is no way I would have broken my ankle...

It seems many here don't recommend water landings. But are there any DZ anywhere in the US that offers that? Ever since watching Point Break as a kid that's something I always wanted to do. (yes, I know the skydiving portrayed in that movie is not realistic) I have no problem swimming and would not drown.

[Southern_Man 0]

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It seems many here don't recommend water landings. But are there any DZ anywhere in the US that offers that? Ever since watching Point Break as a kid that's something I always wanted to do. (yes, I know the skydiving portrayed in that movie is not realistic) I have no problem swimming and would not drown.

You must hold an A license to do an intentional water landing, so there is nowhere that will allow you to do that as a student.

Solo landings could be harder or could be easier than your tandem landing. It is possible you will break your ankle if you jump.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[airtwardo 7]

I have no problem swimming and would not drown.

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If ya couldn't pull your legs into landing position on the tandem, how well do you think you could swim with a harness on, dragging a wet parachute?

That and letting everything dry out and getting the reserve re-packed each time can get rather time consuming & expensive.

Water landings add a degree of complexity to the Skydive that as a beginner one would NOT want to go out of their way to experience.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Ron 10]

There is no safer way for a student to make a jump than tandem... There is no more dangerous way for an instructor to make a jump.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[crotalus01 0]

Last time I checked, TX had plenty of coastline - has something happened I am not aware of??
Also you are going to have to get over being camera shy if you want to skydive - you probably won't find another sport that has as many people wanting to get video of their participation. I can hardly remember the last freefall jump I did that didnt have at least one person wearing a camera.
Video is also an excellent tool to be able to see what you are doing in the air.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[Ron 10]

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I read that big long post and by the end all I could think about was the fact that some dropzones still charge a "fat tax". Disgusting. If you are too big to jump, you are too big.

Then do not ever become a TI.

I guess you get paid the same for packing a Tandem or a sport rig? Do you give a discount to the guy with a small velo?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[linebckr83 3]

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but seriously tandem is kinda gay for a guy to do... and it is not even a real skydiving...

Care to explain? I think anytime someone leaves an aircraft, deploys a parachute, and flies it to the ground to prevent death, it's called a skydive.

I did 2 tandems before any solo jumps, and a couple more while getting my tandem rating. I never felt like it was gay. And it doesn't cross my mind as a TI either (unless my male student is gay, but they are always super professional about it).

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I've seen some very soft tiptoe landings on Youtube... it almost seems like they were literally stepping off an escalator... that is a real ideal landing.

Like I said, that is usually the case. I haven't botched a tandem landing or hurt anyone yet (although there were cases on gusty days I was sure it was gonna happen), but I bet that day is coming if I stick with it. And I also bet that everyone in those YouTube videos has landed hard more than a few times. It happens. Unfortunately, if you jumped a different day, with a different instructor, or simply sooner or later in the day than you did, this injury probably wouldn't have happened and none of this would be a concern to you.

If you jump solo the landings will most likely be pretty rough until you learn the sight picture and timing to correctly flare. To compensate for this you'll learn to PLF to help prevent injury until you get better at it. Then, once you're really good at it, you might take up swooping and a whole new world of botched landings and faceplants will be open to you

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[spootch 0]

quit whineing, and quit tryin to blame everything else. You didn't have enough strength to lift your legs up and you broke your ankle. It happens.

Now your askin about solo landings? guess what you can die from those as well.

Water landings? give your head a shake.

I'm sorry you paid a BS fat tax.
I'm sorry you couldn't do the things you needed to avoid a broken ankle.
And i'm sorry no one "briefed" you on how jumping can be dangerous.

Like Twardo said your lucky to be alive! So here's your briefing for the next time you wish to take up anything more dangerous than sport knitting...

http://youtu.be/unkIVvjZc9Y

[bochen280 0]

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but seriously tandem is kinda gay for a guy to do... and it is not even a real skydiving...

Care to explain? I think anytime someone leaves an aircraft, deploys a parachute, and flies it to the ground to prevent death, it's called a skydive.

I did 2 tandems before any solo jumps, and a couple more while getting my tandem rating. I never felt like it was gay. And it doesn't cross my mind as a TI either (unless my male student is gay, but they are always super professional about it).

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I've seen some very soft tiptoe landings on Youtube... it almost seems like they were literally stepping off an escalator... that is a real ideal landing.

Like I said, that is usually the case. I haven't botched a tandem landing or hurt anyone yet (although there were cases on gusty days I was sure it was gonna happen), but I bet that day is coming if I stick with it. And I also bet that everyone in those YouTube videos has landed hard more than a few times. It happens. Unfortunately, if you jumped a different day, with a different instructor, or simply sooner or later in the day than you did, this injury probably wouldn't have happened and none of this would be a concern to you.

If you jump solo the landings will most likely be pretty rough until you learn the sight picture and timing to correctly flare. To compensate for this you'll learn to PLF to help prevent injury until you get better at it. Then, once you're really good at it, you might take up swooping and a whole new world of botched landings and faceplants will be open to you

I just meant it is an awkward position and generally seems weird to do a tandem when both the instructor and the passenger are of the same gender, especially if both are males. It is just my personal preference but I don't feel comfortable getting that close to someone, especially if it is another dude. In fact had the DZ allowed solo on weekdays there is no way I would have settled for a tandem. He did the jumping out, the stabilization, he deployed the drogue chute, pulled the ripcord, glided the parachute down for landing, and his legs impacted first... I know technically tandem counts as skydiving, but in actuality it felt like I didn't really have to do anything, just a passenger.

[BobMoore 0]

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... Do skinny chicks pay less than mediocre sized people because it takes less gas to get them to altitude and causes less fatigue on the instructor? Doubt it.

How big are mediocre sized people? I'm dyin' to know.

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

[ruleofpull 0]

*** It is just my personal preference but I don't feel comfortable getting that close to someone, especially if it is another dude.

Then, even when you are jumping solo, you might have a problem sitting in a plane full of (gaseous) boys (okay, some are men). But even from the female newbie-perspective, most loads I've been consisted of males. Skydiving, from what I've observed, is not a female dominated sport. You need to be comfy with who you are, and with being in close proximity to both sexes, especially as the ride to altitude can be really cozy at times. Not to be harsh, but get used to it. And...
Sorry about the broken ankle-heal fast!

[packerboy 3]

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I read that big long post and by the end all I could think about was the fact that some dropzones still charge a "fat tax". Disgusting. If you are too big to jump, you are too big.

Then do not ever become a TI.

I guess you get paid the same for packing a Tandem or a sport rig? Do you give a discount to the guy with a small velo?

I'm not interested in becoming a tandem instructor. If I did, I would not work at a dropzone that promotes discrimination. It's simple. You are either too big to jump safely or you are not.

I got paid a different amount for sport rig and tandem because they are two different things which contributed to very different revenue streams for the DZ. I did not however get paid extra to pack a new tandem canopy as opposed to an "experienced" one just because it was harder work, or a Sigma rig vs. an older Vector rig.

I do a job where my customers can be WILDLY different. One can be a major pain in my ass while the next can be an awesome pleasant experience. They all get the same job done for the same amount because the cost of technical support is not relative to the IQ of the person buying it from me.

There is no reason why the DZ can't switch it up with the big ones to prevent one instructor from getting overworked with them. If it isn't workable, then maybe the allowable safe limit should be reduced.

The "You have never been a tandem instructor, you don't know what it is like" argument just doesn't work for me. Packing 40 tandem rigs in a day is sure as hell harder work than doing 15 tandem jumps. And I've done a hell of a lot harder work than packing tandem rigs before.

If you can't do the job you signed up for then don't do it. But to go to your boss and say "You know what.. I feel like I worked a little harder than usual this afternoon because the people I had to work with were fat and not as helpful. I think you should give me a few bucks more an hour just when I work with fat people." is downright ludicrous. IMO

You know what Jackie Robinson? If we had you on our baseball team it may just be a little bit harder to deal with the press, you know, what with you being black and all. And it might be a little bit harder to sell tickets because, you know, people really aren't that used to a black person around here. So we are just going to go ahead and take a little off your salary to compensate for the harder work that we are going to have to do... I mean.. it is going to be a little tougher for us.. Because, well, you just aint the same.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[pchapman 279]

The DZ I'm at finally started charging a little extra and paying a little extra for big tandems -- those over 250 lbs. There were only a few TI's like myself who were willing enough or trusted enough by the DZO to take up the big guys, not to mention being low enough weight in a couple cases. The appreciation of others and the satisfaction of a job well done are nice, but I don't always want to be the one to have to take up (at standard pay) the guy who is 265, 280, or even 300 lbs, mostly out of widebody C-182's in earlier years.

I'm not saying there's only one way of doing things, but at the extremes I'm not going to say no to extra pay as a TI.

[jonathan.newman 1]

When you say "get your feet up", is it lifting your knees and curling into a ball or is it extending both legs in front like a pike position?

[Abedy 0]

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...The thing is I was not briefed what to do in the above situation...

Sorry mate, but even reading your first article I had a voice yelling "Collecting stuff for my ambulance chaser, please help me" in my mind. As Twardo put it, according to all the factors you're complaining about from too little altitude to loose goggles it's a great miracle you survived at all.

I dunno what you were expecting, but if you're out of shape and not really fit, you shouldn't make a tandem jump. If ya do, get yer bloody legs up when landing.

Your TI did instruct you. Even if he didn't mention a sliding landing before boarding - which I highly doubt! - he told you in the air under canopy and practised with you several times. So how come you're ranting about not being briefed?

Just a last thought: A 360 tandem canopy is sufficient in size.

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

[prada 0]

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In my logbook I think the equipment used was a 366. Maybe they didn't have a 400? It would have given me a slower fall rate for sure...

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Just a last thought: A 360 tandem canopy is sufficient in size.

I am only a beginner, but what I think is, there is no relevant connection between fall rate and landing/flaring.
Except may be that the faster you come down the better the flaring actually works.

But from the physics you have to understand that flaring is not the same as 'air-braking' like it worked with vintage round canopies.

In fact, what you do when flaring is you change the shape of your wing and create a course change from 'going down' to 'going up' - exactly like when a pilot of an airplane changes the shape of the wings to create upstream or downstream.

Landing a modern canopy is timing the moment of the course change to the right distance above ground in order to relatively to the earth decrease the speed. But the speed change does not come from air braking - only from the directional change. (bit difficult to explain in English / not my mother tongue)

Therefore the before reached velocity has no influence on the quality of the "brake", except for the fact that if you are not fast enough, the flare will not function and thus no directional change can happen...

my five cents
Prada

[nigel99 471]

Jumping is a very intimate and dangerous sport. In the end it isn't for everyone.

Water adds complexity in lots of ways and doesn't stop you getting killed.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[packerboy 3]

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The DZ I'm at finally started charging a little extra and paying a little extra for big tandems -- those over 250 lbs. There were only a few TI's like myself who were willing enough or trusted enough by the DZO to take up the big guys, not to mention being low enough weight in a couple cases. The appreciation of others and the satisfaction of a job well done are nice, but I don't always want to be the one to have to take up (at standard pay) the guy who is 265, 280, or even 300 lbs, mostly out of widebody C-182's in earlier years.

I'm not saying there's only one way of doing things, but at the extremes I'm not going to say no to extra pay as a TI.

Maybe if a TI is willing to go the distance to make a buck for his/her dz and has superior skills, knowledge, and experience they should get paid a bit more for EVERY jump. You know, kinda how the rest of the business world works. You have a more valuable employee, you pay them more.

The only remote possible way that I can see this not being discrimination is to call it a fuel surcharge tax because it costs more in fuel to carry more weight. However, if that were the case then fun jumpers over 200lbs should have to pay more.

Depending on conditions I seem to remember Ti's wanting to do the big guys at our DZ. Perhaps it was speed they were looking for... There was obviously no shortage of TI's willing to take the ladies for obvious reasons, but I seem to remember our smaller TI's not wanting to take the really small students.

I think what needs to be remembered is that this is not UPS. UPS hauls parcels, inanimate objects. These are human beings going out to experience the thrill of a lifetime. They won't think twice to pay an extra $20 because they are there and have already tossed down a couple hundred. It's because of that they are being taken advantage of.

"I'm not saying there's only one way of doing things, but at the extremes I'm not going to say no to extra pay as a TI."

- You should IMO. You are still getting a ride to altitude at someone elses expense. Take a stand against discrimination. It's not exactly throwing an "n" bomb at someone, but it is the same principle IMO.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[packerboy 3]

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In my logbook I think the equipment used was a 366. Maybe they didn't have a 400? It would have given me a slower fall rate for sure...

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Just a last thought: A 360 tandem canopy is sufficient in size.

I am only a beginner, but what I think is, there is no relevant connection between fall rate and landing/flaring.
Except may be that the faster you come down the better the flaring actually works.

But from the physics you have to understand that flaring is not the same as 'air-braking' like it worked with vintage round canopies.

In fact, what you do when flaring is you change the shape of your wing and create a course change from 'going down' to 'going up' - exactly like when a pilot of an airplane changes the shape of the wings to create upstream or downstream.

Landing a modern canopy is timing the moment of the course change to the right distance above ground in order to relatively to the earth decrease the speed. But the speed change does not come from air braking - only from the directional change. (bit difficult to explain in English / not my mother tongue)

Therefore the before reached velocity has no influence on the quality of the "brake", except for the fact that if you are not fast enough, the flare will not function and thus no directional change can happen...

my five cents
Prada

Someone should tell the swoopers that they are killing themselves diving at the ground for no reason!

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[diablopilot 2]

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I'm not interested in becoming a tandem instructor.

Then your comments on the matter mean exactly shit.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Ron 10]

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I'm not interested in becoming a tandem instructor.

Good, but this just shows you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to how much work is involved with bigger people.

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It's simple. You are either too big to jump safely or you are not.

Again, this just shows you have no idea what you are talking about. It is also clear that you have no interest in learning anything about it.

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I got paid a different amount for sport rig and tandem because they are two different things

Nonsense, they are simply folding material into a bag.

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There is no reason why the DZ can't switch it up with the big ones to prevent one instructor from getting overworked with them.

Again, you have no idea of what you are saying. There is a max weight for a tandem system. If the PAX is heavier, then the TI has to be lighter.

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Packing 40 tandem rigs in a day is sure as hell harder work than doing 15 tandem jumps.

Having never benn a TI... You have no clue what you are talking about,

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If you can't do the job you signed up for then don't do it.

Like you not doing tandems at all?

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But to go to your boss and say "You know what.. I feel like I worked a little harder than usual this afternoon because the people I had to work with were fat and not as helpful. I think you should give me a few bucks more an hour just when I work with fat people." is downright ludicrous. IMO

Well:
1. The TI's do not make those rules.
2. You having never been a TI shows you have no idea how much work it is, or how much extra a bigger person is.

You thinking you know it all about something you have never done is what is ludicrous.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[packerboy 3]

I've been present for the operations of thousands of tandem jumps. I've been very close friends with TI's for years who have collectively done tens of thousands of tandem jumps. I've been in a Cessna 182 hundreds of times with tandem pairs. I worked for and spent hours and hours talking to a DZO who has owned the oldest drop zone in Canada since its inception and has been in the sport for 50+ yrs. I have packed probably close to a thousand tandem rigs and probably as many sport rigs. I've done 5 tandem jumps as a passenger.

You are absolutely correct, I have absolutely NO CLUE because I have never ridden the back of a tandem passenger and have no right to an opinion that has absolutely NOTHING to do with how much more work a tandem jump with a heavier passenger is. I have never once said it isn't more work. I merely stated that charging someone more money for the exact same product based on their physical attributes is discrimination, and it stinks to high heaven. Feel free to continue discriminating because you make more money doing so. It's your right.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[stayhigh 2]

you know how is it is much enjoyable it is to pack velo 90 vs saber 190???

it is same thing. so therefore we charge one little more.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[davelepka 4]

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charging someone more money for the exact same product based on their physical attributes is discrimination

It's not the exact same product. A bigger tandem pax equates to a higher usage of finite resources, such as drouges, canopies, line sets, and instructor strength/energy.

Fall rates between tandems can be drasitcally different based on the weight of the pax. Wear and tear on the gear is higher in those cases, and that needs to be accounted for.

The amount of physical effort it takes to manuver a larger pax in the plane, and fly/flare the canopy is significantly higher, and needs to be accoutned for.

There's no 'discrimination' at play. This is an 'at will' recreational activity, and the participants to do of their own accord with the terms clearly laid out beforehand. This isn't health care or public transportation, if a passenger doesn't like the terms, they don't have to jump.

[packerboy 3]

So why does someone who weighs 90lbs pay less?

And who has calculated the actuall difference of the cost of wear and tear on the gear? And how many thousands of percent of markup ate you making on that wear and tear per jump?

Sure. It costs a different amount to treat people equal. Not debating that. It should be absorbed is what I'm saying. I've seen it absorbed by a small market Cessna drop one without putting them under. And the TI's didn't bitch about it either. Only time I've seen a TI bitch about taking a certain size passenger is a 140lb girl taking a 100lb passenger in winds. Or a 225lb instructor coming into the rotation with a 200lb passenger. Legitimate reasons for concern.

Charge what you want. IMO TI's and DZO's should put of their big girl panties. Many agree with me. Although no one here seems to want to.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson