floatation devices for real?

[risktaker 0]

They tell me here in Massachusetts there is a law that says you have to wear a floatation device if you jump within a mile of water. That's a pain in the neck if you jump tandem. The instructors are experienced and control their chutes. No one uses floatation devices and there is water all over the place. We even jump over the ocean. We just avoid the water.

What's the deal here? Is this law for real?

New to all this.

[risktaker 0]

To "confirmed cynical sarcastic bastard", I inquire because there appears to be some confusion in Massachusetts regarding the floatation device requirement. Some people say it does not apply to tandem jumpers. That sort of doesn't make sense. Tandem jumpers can drown at least as easily as singles, maybe more easily. Safety regs should be clear and unambiguous. My question is clear: Are floatation devices required for tandem jumpers within a mile of water, or not?

Why do I inquire? Because there is a lot of confusion out here about what the rule is. I don't get it. Is it a rule or not?

I understand that it is clever to respond to a question with another question (if you are cynical), but this really is a pretty straight forward question without a clear answer, at least in my neck of the woods. By the way, I do admire cynicism, just not in this case.

[Rougarou 0]

Show us the law: https://malegislature.gov/laws

I get zero hits on the keywords "skydive" or "parachute".
All hits for "flotation" involve watercraft.

Are you sure it's not just a drop zone rule, rather than a state law?

[peek 21]

risktaker

To "confirmed cynical sarcastic bastard", I inquire because there appears to be some confusion in Massachusetts regarding the floatation device requirement. Some people say it does not apply to tandem jumpers. That sort of doesn't make sense. Tandem jumpers can drown at least as easily as singles, maybe more easily. Safety regs should be clear and unambiguous. My question is clear: Are floatation devices required for tandem jumpers within a mile of water, or not?

Why do I inquire? Because there is a lot of confusion out here about what the rule is. I don't get it. Is it a rule or not?

I understand that it is clever to respond to a question with another question (if you are cynical), but this really is a pretty straight forward question without a clear answer, at least in my neck of the woods. By the way, I do admire cynicism, just not in this case.

If you think "confirmed cynical sarcastic bastard" is asking a lot of questions, well, you ain't heard nothin' yet. (From me and from others.)

1. "Some people say..." Who says? experienced skydivers? tandem instructors? drop zone operators?

2. Are you an experienced skydiver? student? tandem student? attorney? etc?

3. Are you confusing state law with our national association's (USPA) rules?

4. Who in authority have you contacted about this concern?

"Safety regs should be clear and unambiguous." Actually, they usually are, but one needs to identify the regs first.

(By the way, when someone talks about rules and their possible violation on their first post to dropzone.com, they are of course suspect. Sorry, but that is kind of given around here.)

.

[DougH 270]

Smells like a lawyer.

Please excuse me if I am making an incorrect assumption. That being said it reeks of someone trying to ascertain that a specific rule wasn't complied with.

First post on DZ.com, asking about rules. Axe to grind, opening statements to prepare?

Maybe a less threatening account name was in order. Like... AxeGrinder, or AmbulanceChaser.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Trafficdiver 8]

Its funny how there are people trying to close down certain tandem factories on Cape Cod and you ask this question.

[riggerrob 643]

I am not up to date on the latest United States Parachute Association Basic Safety Regulations, but Canadian Sports Parachuting Association BSRs require all skydives to wear flotation gear when their intended landing area is within 1 kilometer of open water.
Open water is defined as any body of water big enough o drown you: ocean, lake, reservoir, canal, mill pond, etc.

As for the definition of "floatation gear" just look in the Para-Gear catalogue as they sell a dozen different types of flotation, most of which is approved for military aircrew.

Note: the above advice was intended for skydivers.
However, if the original poster was an ambulance-chasing lawyer, he can take a long, hard suck on my ..... my ... my hot-knife!

[stratostar 5]

Quote

They tell me here in Massachusetts there is a law that says you have to wear a floatation device if you jump within a mile of water.

Well that is true, the law passed in the last session and it's a little known fact that slipped by many, the media hardly reported on it at all, because it was hidden in the ACA health care bill. Now not only are you forced to carry health insurance or get fined, you ,must carry floatation devices as well, yep even tandem's, so that you have more chance of a larger medical bill after they rescue you and force you to go the hospital. This really came about from that botched flying Elvis demo back in the late 80's where those guys were blown off course and landed in the harbor. I heard one of those guys mothers bother in law's sister's husband was a state representative who was elected to congress and pushed that in as a mandate to the ACA bill.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[stayhigh 2]

tandem reserve will float in water for 30 min??

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[TomNoonan 1]

Quote

My question is clear: Are floatation devices required for tandem jumpers within a mile of water, or not?

Your question is clear, but you are asking your question in the wrong place, directing it to the wrong audience. No one on this website (that I am aware of) works for the Massachusetts Department of Transportation Aeronautics Division.

For specific Massachusetts rules and regs:
Contact MassDOT Aero. They have a website, an email address and a phone #. I communicate with them regularly through all three mediums.

For national rules and regs as they pertain to USPA Group Member DZs, contact USPA. Same thing: They have a website, email and phone #.

Namaste,
Tom Noonan

www.everest-skydive.com

[Doug_Davis 0]

risktaker

They tell me here in Massachusetts there is a law that says you have to wear a floatation device if you jump within a mile of water. That's a pain in the neck if you jump tandem. The instructors are experienced and control their chutes. No one uses floatation devices and there is water all over the place. We even jump over the ocean. We just avoid the water.

What's the deal here? Is this law for real?

New to all this.

This person sounds like a townie trying to get the DZ ops shut down. Town reps did a conference call just this past year, with FAA officials and tried to raise the same concerns. The FAA response was:

Quote

Flotation Devices 

A question was posed about the need for flotation devices on skydivers and FAA noted they are not required as the runway is located further than 100 feet from edge of a water body.   An analogy was made between a parachute and a glider/plane that flies over water as there is some ability to glide and avoid. 

They also sent the DZO a letter requesting...

Quote

Request skydive  customers to  avoid use of any offensive language during parachute jumping and landing.

So DZOs are now responsible for customers using curse words?
What is it with these small town city councils and small minded local citizens trying to get skydiving and airport ops shut down? If you dont like the noise then you shouldnt have bought your cheap house in a neighborhood at the end of a runway, move idiot.

[hillson 0]

One of the local disgruntleds near Skydive Cape Cod I'd wager.

[Boogers 0]

Quote

Flotation Devices 

A question was posed about the need for flotation devices on skydivers and FAA noted they are not required as the runway is located further than 100 feet from edge of a water body.   An analogy was made between a parachute and a glider/plane that flies over water as there is some ability to glide and avoid. 

Is there any FAA rule requiring floatation for skydivers within 100 feet from water? I've never heard of anything like that. Couldn't find anything in Section 105.

Maybe they're referring to this section:
http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_121-340.html
But that is for aircraft, not skydivers.

Sounds more and more like someone looking for some nit-picky bureacratic excuse to cause a drop zone a lot of trouble.

[risktaker 0]

It's a MassDOT regulation. I'm not a lawyer. You are very suspicious. What's that all about?

It's a Mass regulation and no one that I know of pays any attention to it. I just wonder why. Does the law not apply to tandem jumps?

Do you guys get a lot of lawyers on this site? It's a chat room, not a court.

[risktaker 0]

So, this site is all about NOT following the rules? Are you threatened because I want to understand the rules. Lawyers use the law. I'm just asking a question. Why does that bother you? Are you defending unsafe practices? Is that what this site is all about?

The account name was just being silly. It meant nothing.

[risktaker 0]

So, Canada has a floatation device rule and incredibly it's well know and they are not afraid to discuss it. Good for Canada.

As for sucking on...hot knives, we don't do that kind of thing down here. Each to their own as they say.

[risktaker 0]

I know nothing about the health care law, but that would be a federal law. I'm talking about Massachusetts.

[risktaker 0]

I have asked the good folks at MassDOT aeronautics. They won't answer. Do you have special access that the rest of us don't?

I went to this sight because MassDOT doesn't talk to people.

Maybe you could find the answer and post it: Are floatation devices required for jumps within a mile of water or not? If yes, are there any exceptions?

It is absolutely bizzare to me that people are so threatened by this one rule.

[monkycndo 0]

risktaker

They tell me here in Massachusetts there is a law that says you have to wear a floatation device if you jump within a mile of water.

Who is "they"?

risktaker

Safety regs should be clear and unambiguous.

Safety regs being unambiguous? Try this. Read all the FARs that pertain to rigging. Then go into the Gear and Rigging forum and explain whether a senior rigger can or cannot legally reline a main canopy so everyone agrees with you.

Good luck.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[risktaker 0]

I repeat, not an FAA reg, a Mass. reg.

Now we're defending foul language and belittling people who live near airports? That seems a little harsh. Where do you live? Are you a townie? You make fun of people's houses because they might not cost as much as your house? Are you maybe just a little off base here?

[risktaker 0]

Nit-picky bureaucratic excuse to cause trouble? So, wearing a life jacket is nit-picky if you land in the water. Why bother with a backup chute? Just nit-picking. So you don't support MassDOT rules? you're quite a rebel.

[risktaker 0]

Finally, someone who gets it. There is so much that is unclear about the regs. I picked one very simple MassDOT regulation that is published, I have read it. And yet some officials and some DZs say it doesn't apply to tandem jumpers. It does, or it doesn't. And you guys can't even talk about it without paranoia and insults. And you want me to tell you who I am? Are you kidding me?

I'm a guy who likes to do things right. Hard to do in this world I guess.

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

What's the deal here? Is this law for real?

Quote

Why do I inquire? Because there is a lot of confusion out here about what the rule is. I don't get it. Is it a rule or not?

Quote

I have asked the good folks at MassDOT aeronautics. They won't answer. Do you have special access that the rest of us don't?

I went to this sight because MassDOT doesn't talk to people.

Quote

I picked one very simple MassDOT regulation that is published, I have read it.

You confuse me with your constantly changing statements and questions that get reworded every time you post.

I'm trying to remember the last person I saw use that tactic to see if they could get a different answer out of someone. Oh yeah! It was one of those people in the courtroom when I was a juror a couple years ago. That was an interesting technique for sure.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Doug_Davis 0]

risktaker

I repeat, not an FAA reg, a Mass. reg.

Now we're defending foul language and belittling people who live near airports? That seems a little harsh. Where do you live? Are you a townie? You make fun of people's houses because they might not cost as much as your house? Are you maybe just a little off base here?

Its now fairly obvious to every poster on this forum that you are not a skydiver. F'off.

[DBCOOPER 5]

Nope, looked it up. Not required.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.