USPA Acts to Ensure Proper TI Qualifications

[grimmie 186]

baronn

Of all the places I've worked at (yeah, it's a been a few), I've never had my ratings investigated like this. No doubt, it's complete BS that anyone is trying to pull this shit but, my point is where is the responsibilty of the DZO to do this? A candidate answers an ad for help, presents the ratings, medical and in date membership, USPA confirms its good and that's it. IF Bill knew the TIE's were no good and if the course was done at his place knowing this, that's a different story. Hopefully the facts will present a clear answer. So far, IMO, this looks like a witch hunt on a non member DZO by the USPA

This isn't a "witch hunt".

The USPA is confirming that all of the instructors meet the FAR 105.45 requirements. The facts are presenting clear answers.

[baronn 111]

Don't get confused. Of course TI's need to meet the requirements. My point is, this is unprecedented action that I know of. So far, I haven't seen any facts that support that these TI's didn't have the proper Cert's. If they had USPA issued cert's and showed them to the DZO, how is he supposed to know they aren't legit? This is all conjecture at this point in time.
Let's try to stay on point and just stick to what has actually been shown and is true by history. Somebody wants to become a TI, they meet the requirements, find a TIE, do the course, get a USPA and Mfg's cert, pass a medical and go to work. An unfortunate incident happens (this isn't the 1st time) and this happens. Seems this should have happened before the incident but, that's another issue. The main issue I see is did the USPA issue cert's? How long have the TIE's been suspended? Did Bill know the TIE's weren't up to speed and used them anyway? And what reason is there for pulling Bill's personal membership? I don't have these answers. I'm only going off of what has happened so far.

[obelixtim 150]

baronn

Don't get confused. Of course TI's need to meet the requirements. My point is, this is unprecedented action that I know of. So far, I haven't seen any facts that support that these TI's didn't have the proper Cert's. If they had USPA issued cert's and showed them to the DZO, how is he supposed to know they aren't legit? This is all conjecture at this point in time.
Let's try to stay on point and just stick to what has actually been shown and is true by history. Somebody wants to become a TI, they meet the requirements, find a TIE, do the course, get a USPA and Mfg's cert, pass a medical and go to work. An unfortunate incident happens (this isn't the 1st time) and this happens. Seems this should have happened before the incident but, that's another issue. The main issue I see is did the USPA issue cert's? How long have the TIE's been suspended? Did Bill know the TIE's weren't up to speed and used them anyway? And what reason is there for pulling Bill's personal membership? I don't have these answers. I'm only going off of what has happened so far.

No dog in this fight.

But.

Maybe its because the buck stops with him. As the boss he is responsible for what goes on at his DZ. Whether he is aware or not of what has been happening.

If you are in a position of responsibility, ignorance is not an excuse.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[baronn 111]

TI shows up with a current USPA issued cert and a current medical, the DZO confirms it with the USPA and it's still his responsibilty to doubt it's legit? Please show me just 1 other instance where any DZO has done this. Again, I'm not taking any sides here, just looking at what has been known so far. 120 instructors took some time to train. This is just coming to light now? Total BS that these guys pulled this kinda crap but, they didn't start yesterday.
The questions that need answers are:
Did these TI's have USPA certs? Did Bill know the instructors were doing shoddy stuff? Why did the USPA yank his personal membership?
I'm not sure if answering these questions at this time and on this forum is a good idea. The walls have ears and who knows who is reading this. I'm just trying to offer (what I think) is an impartial view. Take it for what's it's worth

[grimmie 186]

Since you are an instructor, I assume you have received the "USPA Professional" e-mail that explains everything that is going regarding tandem instructor ratings. If you think something nefarious is going on after reading it, you're the confused one.

[kaiser 19]

Is this the one and same individual ? In the arrests report.

[jimjumper 25]

I just checked the USPA website for the "USPA Professional" but I didn't find it. Is it published publicly somewhere?

[spacetrance 0]

Someone posted it here:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4813762

It is the reply by PhreeZone

------------------------------------
Scientist and Physicist still do not understand gravity... Jumping out of an airplane is my attempt to help them in their quest to explain gravity.

[baronn 111]

I have. Only raises more questions for me. The biggie here is, did the USPA issue tandem certs that were sent in from an examiner that had his rating pulled? The thread "So you think you're a TI?" answers a few more than the USPA notice did. The USPA takes this action and yanks 140 TI's ratings and forces them to get re-certified. I guess guilty before a full investigation is complete is the USPA way. Seems odd this action has never happened in the past. Unusual circumstances here? No doubt. Is this the right action? Guess the lawyers will find out. Gonna be a Shitstorm for sure....

[kaiser 19]

I don't know squad but a shitstorm for sure.
140 Tandem instructors and that's only a official number given and not to imagine the true numbers.
I do remember reading somewhere that TI's had no USPA membership...is our skydiving governance caving in now ?
Please...someone...rescue...our...sport...!

[PhreeZone 20]

The other thing that needs to be considered is that you can be "rated" on paper only without sending the paperwork in right away. I forget the time limit but there is a 30 or 60 day window that allows for the paperwork to be sent in and processed before the UPSA sends you back your official card. TE's could be holding the paperwork before sending it in but students think that they are fully rated and go off with a paper rating to work at a DZ somewhere.

Other issue is that per the USPA guidelines RD's are allowed to make field level actions of revoking ratings or memberships but these need full board approval to be longer than I think 60 days. USPA only holds 2 full board meetings a year for disciplinary actions in person and everything else has to be done electronically or via special procedures. Look at the summary of the winter meeting note and you see they had notes on people for the last 6 months in there including a few cases where they suspended a rating or membership but then said it took effect weeks earlier than when they approved it.

Side issue that I thought of on this is that TI and TE's have to have a current class 3 medical via the FAA right now.

This is going to be a lot of speculation from this point forward - If this is the same person that was mentioned in another thread that had an arrest for methamphetamine possession and intent to distribute on April 2 2014 then that would have needed to be reported to the FAA at that time and that would have resulted in an instant suspension of his medical on that date. There is a process that the FAA uses in cases like these that the medical is suspended until proof of a completed treatment program and other things but that is a long process. Most times issues like DUI's, new medication and health concerns are identified at the renewal of the certificate every 60 months if you are under 40 years old or every 24 months if older than 40. In between the renewal it would be up to the medical holder to self report and if they are found not to have done that it is grounds for non-renewal. FAA's site shows that a medical was issued in 2011 for a Robert Allen Pooley so if he is under 40 he would not have to renew it until this year.

This complicates things a lot since his medical might\should\could have been suspended via the FAA starting in April of 2014 at the time of arrest and therefore he was ineligible to use the privileges of it including tandem jumps and instruction moving forward. Technically all courses ran from the point his medical should have been suspended were really invalid since he was not under a valid medical and therefore none of his ratings were really valid. If he kept running courses all the way up to the USPA\UPT suspended his rating all those courses would need to be invalidated some how.

Just going further out there that his employer at a DZ should have known about an arrest for drug possession\intent to distribute and that it would render his medical invalid starting at that point. Any tandem jumps past the point of a suspended medical would have been in violation of the FAR's.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[sammielu 3]

Yes, ^^^ that is speculation. There is a lot of logic there though too; logic that makes more sense than the USPA and/or FAA being vindictive towards this one dz that they have allowed to operate for years.
It is entirely possible that a TI or TIE could do something that would invalidate their FAA medical that any DZ wouldn't know about unless they were directly informed. In that speculative scenario, it all falls on the TIE, but since the DZ and/or equipment owner (in Lodi's case the DZO is the equipment owner) is ultimately responsible to the FAA that ratings are intact for all tandem jumps, there's the reason to suspend ratings, whether the DZO knew about the infraction that invalidated the FAA medical or not. And if this TIE conducted any training or signed off on any paperwork, all that is rendered invalid with the FAA since the TIE doesn't have a current rating. IF that's the situation, it absolutely makes sense to have ratings suspended and to verify training or re-train TI's who were rated from that TIE.

[kallend 2,069]

baronn

The USPA takes this action and yanks 140 TI's ratings and forces them to get re-certified. I guess guilty before a full investigation is complete is the USPA way.

It's the ethical and appropriate way when the safety of the paying "passenger" is considered paramount.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[diablopilot 2]

baronn

Which part of (excuseyish) are smelling? The USPA did this once before. Against the owners of what was then Skyride. They have plenty of dough so they dragged them to court to get their membership back. Case was heard in front of a Federal judge. Took him 22 min to reach a decision in favor of the Plaintiff. USPA agreed to the settlement but only if it remained sealed.
I've never been to Lodi and have never met Bill. Not sure how his place operates. Unless he KNEW these instructors did not have the proper certs or ratings, I don't see why the USPA yanked his personal membership. Seems "Bullyish" to me. Especially after Ed Scott's comments right after this happened

It doesn't appear to me that any membership has been revoked, but rather suspended pending the outcome of an investigation, again as outlined as normal procedure in the S&TA and Governance manuals.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Ron 10]

JohnMitchell

***Why must they stop doing tandems if they don't have UPT AND USPA tandem ratings?

FAA Part 105.45 is pretty specific that you have to have a "master's parachute license" and have been "certified by the manufacturer or tandem course provider", etc.

Without your license and certification, you're violating federal law, not just some USPA rules. The FAA can take you to court and fine the heck out of you.

USPA does not issue "Master" licenses. They have not for 15 years. So anyone with a "D" that was after the date they changed would be illegal according to the FAA.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnMitchell 16]

Ron

******Why must they stop doing tandems if they don't have UPT AND USPA tandem ratings?

FAA Part 105.45 is pretty specific that you have to have a "master's parachute license" and have been "certified by the manufacturer or tandem course provider", etc.

Without your license and certification, you're violating federal law, not just some USPA rules. The FAA can take you to court and fine the heck out of you.

USPA does not issue "Master" licenses. They have not for 15 years. So anyone with a "D" that was after the date they changed would be illegal according to the FAA.

Hmmm, I wonder if the FAA recognizes a D "expert" license as being a "master" license? Interesting take on the semantics of it. Does anyone know the answer to this?

[daless 0]

In the fatality thread, it was implied that the IE forged the signature of a legit IE on the applications for the instructors he gave ratings to.

Is this true?

Also, did the USPA make any effort to alert DZOs of this IE's suspension at the places the IE was known to be running ratings courses?

I feel like the explicit answer to these two questions is kind of important, since it speaks to Bill's culpability.

Perhaps the investigation is still ongoing and they can't comment yet but these are the things I'm still wondering about.