Another Student Harness Post (pic)

[skydived19006 4]

Am I the only TI bothered when I see a student harness with the "chest strap" below the belly button. This one, the leg straps are nearly horizontal as well.

My very simple litmus test on adjustment is "Does it look like what would resemble a proper fitting sport harness?" Who the heck would want to jump a sport rig with the leg straps running horizontal and the chest strap at their belt line?

It scares me!

Of course one could simply refer to the UPT document on harness adjustment if in doubt. I don't understand how these guys were taught, or at some point convinced that this is proper.

Martin Myrtle

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[douwanto 22]

Mr. Cooleo there is clueless. I bet he pulls the main lift webs down as far as he can before exit and the chest strap becomes chest high and she becomes a squatting skydiver..

other wise this looks very dangerous....

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[skydived19006 4]

douwanto

Mr. Cooleo there is clueless. I bet he pulls the main lift webs down as far as he can before exit and the chest strap becomes chest high and she becomes a squatting skydiver..

other wise this looks very dangerous....

Very possibly. But these guys are all over the place! Maybe they're all on "the list" trained by the dudes at Lodi?

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[TheCaptain 2]

I have seen similar harness jobs .On top of the chest strap being in a useless place it really bothers me when the belly band & back strap are around crotch level too it make them useless and now you are just counting on the Y-mod to hold them in.

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[skydived19006 4]

TheCaptain

I have seen similar harness jobs .On top of the chest strap being in a useless place it really bothers me when the belly band & back strap are around crotch level too it make them useless and now you are just counting on the Y-mod to hold them in.

The irony I see, I seriously doubt that this Instructor would jump a sport harness that looked like that. It's just stupid, I can't imagine any other reasoning.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[kaiser 19]

It's very upsetting to see a student harness put on wrong.

[riggerrob 643]

Wow!
Those TIs need refresher training on the function and adjustment of student harnesses.
First off: the leg straps, belly and horizontal back straps are supposed to work together to keep the pelvis in the harness. Part of that process is snugging the back and belly bands around the top of the pelvis (iliac crests ...... at the same level a belt holds up your pants.
IOW the hip junction should cover the iliac crests, while a tandem harness should be adjusted to position the junction forward of the ilia a crest, on the front of the pelvis.

[skydived19006 4]

It's not rocket surgery. Attached.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[riggerrob 643]

skydived19006

Am I the only TI bothered when I see a student harness with the "chest strap" below the belly button. This one, the leg straps are nearly horizontal as well.

My very simple litmus test on adjustment is "Does it look like what would resemble a proper fitting sport harness?" Who the heck would want to jump a sport harness ....... with .... chest strap at their belt line?
..............................
It scares me!
....................................
Martin Myrtle

...........................................................................................

It scares me too!

Back during the 1980s several solo harness manufacturers (EOS, Centaurus, etc.) experimented with low chest straps (IOW belie the reserve ripcord handle). The primary motivation was comfort for women with large "girls."
I remember one member of the Canadian (classic) style and accuracy team who had a chest strap that ran below her "chest." She was so uncomfortable that she asked a rigger to see on an extra chest strap above her reserve ripcord. The two straps framed her "girls" magnificently!
After many years, manufacturers converged on the current harness configuration.
Remember that the primary function of any chest strap is to keep the shoulder yoke over your shoulders until after opening shock. A similar (related) function is preventing you from falling forward out of your harness.

When adjusting tandem student harnesses, keep the hooks near the top of the shoulders and the chest strap high enough to prevent a shoulder from slipping out of the harness.

[JerryBaumchen 1,387]

Hi Rob,

Quote

EOS, Centaurus

Well, the same guy did design both of those rigs => Troy Loney.

Jerry Baumchen

[jtiflyer 0]

skydived19006

Am I the only TI bothered when I see a student harness with the "chest strap" below the belly button. This one, the leg straps are nearly horizontal as well.

My very simple litmus test on adjustment is "Does it look like what would resemble a proper fitting sport harness?" Who the heck would want to jump a sport rig with the leg straps running horizontal and the chest strap at their belt line?

It scares me!

Of course one could simply refer to the UPT document on harness adjustment if in doubt. I don't understand how these guys were taught, or at some point convinced that this is proper.

Martin Myrtle

Guy on the right is an UPT examiner (or was at least when I worked with him). He was always very helpful and upfront when offering advice to newer TI's. Harness on the left looks a lot like how I see strong's harnessed.

[skydived19006 4]

jtiflyer

Guy on the right is an UPT examiner (or was at least when I worked with him). He was always very helpful and upfront when offering advice to newer TI's. Harness on the left looks a lot like how I see strong's harnessed.

Good point. I noticed a UPT harness adjusted similar to this by a Strong TI. I helped him with the chest strap adjustment. As a USPA IE I likely should have asked if he was also rated on UPT gear.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[DougH 270]

jtiflyer

Guy on the right is an UPT examiner (or was at least when I worked with him). He was always very helpful and upfront when offering advice to newer TI's. Harness on the left looks a lot like how I see strong's harnessed.

Our left, or their left?

I don't like how the harness is adjusted on the woman with the green v-neck at all.

Belly band should be way further up the pelvis, I have them hold the harness at the hip junctions so it is up near their hip bones while I adjust the MLW. This almost always gets the belly band up higher where it is supposed to be. Those hip junctions should be maybe 3 inches higher.

Also the belly band should be tighter. The MLW should run more up the front than along the sides.

Is the student going to fall out, probably not, but they are going to be more comfortable, and perform better (especially for landing) if you adjust per the manual.

I can't think of why you would want it this way, unless the chest strap was previously sitting low from being on a smaller student, and you were being lazy.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[ShotterMG 0]

Isn't it obvious that neither harness has been adjusted yet? Most likely they just paused for a second to take a picture before adjusting the harness.

[JohnMitchell 16]

I don't see a lot of slack below the chest strap on the harness in question. Is that your real opinion or are you just throwing out troll bait . . . again?

[ShotterMG 0]

How do you figure I am trolling John? You are so intent on bandwagon criticism you are ignoring your own experience. How many times have you been forced to take a picture for various reasons while in the middle of adjusting a harness? It happens all the time. Look at the shoulder straps on the harness in question, They are not buttoned down. It's reasonable to assume the instructor will do so before boarding the plane. When he does this, he will slide the chest strap up and make final adjustments.
Why, as an instructor, would you assume the worst of your fellow professionals? This picture is far from definitive proof that anyone boarded the plane without a properly adjusted harness. But you and everyone else here, are too intent on inflating your egos at the expense of others, all based on a picture with no context given.

[ShotterMG 0]

This person obviously has not had her harness adjusted yet. It is simply hanging off of her except the leg straps are cinched down. Again, it is clear the picture has been taken before the harnessing was complete. Students often make us do this.
How on earth you lemmings think this picture proves anything I will never know. You are so quick to judge based on a picture you know nothing about. Your superiority complex, and self righteousness do not serve you well as a tandem instructor.

[JohnMitchell 16]

ShotterMG

This person obviously has not had her harness adjusted yet. It is simply hanging off of her except the leg straps are cinched down. Again, it is clear the picture has been taken before the harnessing was complete. Students often make us do this.
How on earth you lemmings think this picture proves anything I will never know. You are so quick to judge based on a picture you know nothing about. Your superiority complex, and self righteousness do not serve you well as a tandem instructor.

Okay, you're trolling. Have a nice day.

[gowlerk 2,218]

JohnMitchell

***This person obviously has not had her harness adjusted yet. It is simply hanging off of her except the leg straps are cinched down. Again, it is clear the picture has been taken before the harnessing was complete. Students often make us do this.
How on earth you lemmings think this picture proves anything I will never know. You are so quick to judge based on a picture you know nothing about. Your superiority complex, and self righteousness do not serve you well as a tandem instructor.

Okay, you're trolling. Have a nice day.
That was actually my first though when I looked at the pic. There is no way to know if they jumped this way or if the harness received further adjustment. It serves as a good example of how not to jump, but it is not evidence of malpractice.

It hard to believe that someone would jump with a harness adjusted like the one on the viewers left. And it's hard to believe a top tier operation like CSC has incompetent TIs.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[DougH 270]

Come on, now your just being ridiculous.

I always put a harness on a student, snug up the leg straps, snug up the MLW, and leave everything else as is while they pose for pictures. Before I finish I make sure I put on my tandem rig, because it really makes it better for me to finish the harness adjustments.

After each jump I leave the MLW and legs straps tight, but take time to leave the belly band in the improper placement that I started with. I do make sure to push the chest strap way down the main lift web. It doesn't make the walk back more comfortable, but gives me one more up close and personal with the students chest. Again all of this is better done with the tandem rig still on my back.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[TheCaptain 2]

ShotterMG

How do you figure I am trolling John? You are so intent on bandwagon criticism you are ignoring your own experience. How many times have you been forced to take a picture for various reasons while in the middle of adjusting a harness? It happens all the time. Look at the shoulder straps on the harness in question, They are not buttoned down. It's reasonable to assume the instructor will do so before boarding the plane. When he does this, he will slide the chest strap up and make final adjustments.
Why, as an instructor, would you assume the worst of your fellow professionals? This picture is far from definitive proof that anyone boarded the plane without a properly adjusted harness. But you and everyone else here, are too intent on inflating your egos at the expense of others, all based on a picture with no context given.

I can honestly say in over 4000 tandems I have never stopped half way through a harness adjustment to take a picture and I never would.

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[justme12001 0]

Look at the chest strap and belly bands! They are adjusted and have the excess stowed in the elastic bands.

Tandem rigs are on the TIs.........

I have about 3000 tandems and always finish my harness adjustments once I start putting it on.

[Skydivesg 7]

Martin, tell me there is not one single picture of you taken with your tandem passenger before you finished adjusting the harness.

I have made hundreds of jumps at CSC as a load organizer and I can attest that they adjust the harness properly before boarding the airplane. I've also filmed more than 50 different TIs at multiple DZs over the last few years. No one is more safety conscious than CSC and their staff.

I have a couple of hard drives full of pictures from various DZs of which many show the passenger with the TI before the final adjustments.

Martin I've always respected you and your thoughts but this one is beneath you.

Nothing to see here folks .......... move along.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[JohnMitchell 16]

gowlerk

That was actually my first though when I looked at the pic. There is no way to know if they jumped this way or if the harness received further adjustment. It serves as a good example of how not to jump, but it is not evidence of malpractice.

The lack of slack in the MLW below the chest strap and the apparent snugness of the leg straps and belly band make me believe, IMHO, that the harness is snug, at least on the front side. The only way to move the chest strap up to where most of us believe it should go would be to use the sliding adjustments on the chest strap.

Why someone would have a passenger walk around like that, IDK. Quite possibly it was readjusted before the jump.

Anyway, the malpractice thing? I didn't really get the flame out on anyone. I just chimed in when ShotterMG was throwing out some sublime bait. But I will say "yes, that doesn't look right to me."

Peace out, y'all.

[skydived19006 4]

Skydivesg

Martin, tell me there is not one single picture of you taken with your tandem passenger before you finished adjusting the harness.

I have made hundreds of jumps at CSC as a load organizer and I can attest that they adjust the harness properly before boarding the airplane. I've also filmed more than 50 different TIs at multiple DZs over the last few years. No one is more safety conscious than CSC and their staff.

I have a couple of hard drives full of pictures from various DZs of which many show the passenger with the TI before the final adjustments.

Martin I've always respected you and your thoughts but this one is beneath you.

Nothing to see here folks .......... move along.

I was sure enough that I was correct that I spent 15 minutes finding the pictures again. I also had thught that I wasn't calling out any particular DZ, only to now notice that the two instructors are wearing CSC shirts.

I had made an assumption also that since they were walking to the airplane, and that the leg straps were fully tight, that the harness appeared to be fully adjusted. I was incorrect. I looked through the pictures again, and at some point the harness was adjusted, at a minimum, shortened the laterals, back straps and moved up the chest strap. For sure as Sandy called me out, the harness was correctly adjusted by the time by the time that they were on the airplane.

So, I apologise to all involved. I fully believe Sandy's assertion that they "do it right at CSC".

I was not intentionally trying to be inflammatory, but regardless was incorrect in my assertion. Thank you Sandy for calling me on it!

That said, I have seen harnesses exit the airplane at various times in a similar state.

Here's the link to the full set of pictures for anyone so inclined to look.
http://galleries.skydivecsc.com/Tandem-Skydives/2016/11-November/06/Katelyn-Tellez/i-sR6b7mv/A

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ