182 tandem jump versus a turbine jump.

[kaiser 20]

Skill set for either aircraft is the question here.....and do we need to add or integrate the huge differences in our tandem training?

[DougH 270]

They way I look at it, any rated Tandem instructors should have the common sense, and professionalism, to ask other experienced instructors for guidance in new situations.

New airplane, ask others.

Student with physical impairments, ask others.

New drop-zone, ask others.

You should have the skill set already, you just need to know the differences when approaching new situations.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[kaiser 20]

I agree with you on all accounts.Thank you again.
Skill set and current skydiving standards are at a record time low at this point at most DZ's.I get around lots and see what's going on.Its a disaster I can just say at this point.
The goal here is to get our tandem skydiving business back under control.

[jimjumper 25]

Had a similar discussion for side door vs tailgate. Usually it ends up as the individual Instructors preference based on input from other I 's.

[peek 21]

DougH

They way I look at it, any rated Tandem instructors should have the common sense, and professionalism, to ask other experienced instructors for guidance in new situations.

I agree, they should seek advice, but the new instructor may be in competition with other instructors for students at their DZ, and asking for advice may be regarded as a weakness or lack of skill. Think about how many instructors take marginally fit students on tandems, or start using hand cameras before they are ready. Tandem jumping is a business most places now, and instructors are competitive. Also, many DZs want as much work out of them as possible. Fitting in sometimes becomes more important than safety.

[fencebuster 7]

Peek: I hope that is not the case that safety takes a back seat to "fitting in" or doing things right.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[DougH 270]

fencebuster

Peek: I hope that is not the case that safety takes a back seat to "fitting in" or doing things right.

I hope so too. Wow!

I don't have much of a dog in this fight, I am a weekender at a great dz with a great DZO and S&TA.

If I ever find myself at a place where I can't ask pointers, and the instructors aren't comparing notes due to some misguided goal of keeping up appearances, then I won't be there for long!!!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[DJL 235]

kaiser

Skill set for either aircraft is the question here.....and do we need to add or integrate the huge differences in our tandem training?

I would never go to another DZ to work and not discuss exits with the resident TI and Vids as part of how they perform DZ ops.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[kaiser 20]

Safety has taken the back seat for sure at lots of DZ's.
I am a full time year round instructor and my experience and stories at DZ's are true but I'm not out to start any kind of pissing contest with anyone.
DZO/ chief instructor or lead tandem master of a DZ, needs to qualify the needed experience and skill level of a new employee.
to many DZ's are unsupervised and do not meet our industry standards.
But the current rating standards feed these DZO with a skydiver, that holds a tandem master rating under the following: 500 jumps/ three years in the sport of skydiving, coach rating and TI training are done together in a few days time to a week.
Safety just took the back seat.....!

[riggerrob 643]

I disagree.
For the past three summers, I have been helping out at a single-Cessna DZ. I only do tandems there.
This spring their keenest IAD Instructor/Coach earned his TI rating. I am pleasantly surprised at how thoroughly he understands so many of the finer points of the tandem business! He knows techniques that it took me hundreds of jumps to learn during the 1980s!
TIE Erica .... did a great job of teaching him!

Over the years, I have done 4500 tandem jumps from a wide variety of aircraft at dozens of different DZs in several different countries.

[kaiser 20]

Hi riggerob.
A-OK that you disagree.

[kaiser 20]

The finer points of the tandem business.182 tandem jump vs a turbine tandem jump:
When is the skill level reach by an TI to jump at 8000ft exit altitude vs14500ft.exit altitude.And when will the TI start jumping with hand-cam.
Considering TI has only turbine tandem jump experience.

[riggerrob 643]

If a new TI is smart, he/she will ask a local TI for advice before jumping a new type of airplane.
Also consider that I have posted here the finer points of sitting exits from Cessnas.

I did my first 9 tandems from Porters, then jumped Cessna 205 and 207 for the rest of the season. The following season, I jumped Dornier 228, Syvan and Allouette. Fortunately, I always had a senior TI to show me the ropes.

UPT says a minimum of 200 tandems before you strap on a hand cam. Again, smart young TIs will ask senior TIs for advice before jumping new cameras.

[Eepika 0]

Just want to say thanks for the compliment Riggerrob. The TI that you speak of was a quick study though, so I cannot take all the credit!

[kaiser 20]

Back strap and y-strap sure proof their point.

[riggerrob 643]

A more positive response would be for TIs to share tips and tricks for different airplane types.

For example, I like to do SITTING EXITS from single-engined Cessnas. I do all the hook-up and briefing with my butt firmly planted on the floor, facing aft.
During jump-run, I can lean my head out far enough to confirm the spot. Then I put my left foot on the outboard (right) end of the step and tap students' legs to remind them to copy my example.
Then I place student's hands on their chests. I shift my right foot to the aft corner of the door (toes outside). I lean out until I am sitting on my right heal.
Pull students' head back and exit.
I fully extend my arms overhead and tuck my feet onto my butt. This usually results in a stable, head-down exit.

I hog the "old man's seat" behind the pilot because it allows me to spread my knees wide while tightening lateral straps. If you hog the old man's seat, you are obligated to haul the bigger/wider student.

OTOH if I am stuck in the front (co-pilot's position) - of a narrow-body Cessna 180 series (as old as me) - I attach lateral straps before closing the door and ask my student to sit on my lap while tightening side straps.