Crossfire vs. Cobalt

[alan 1]

i am not trying to put spins on anything just not argue over comments not in context.
>Are you implying that I edited your comments to change the context?
canopies lables stating max opening speed are tested only for canopy survival and not if the jumper will sustain injury as a result of that opening.
>This might be a good topic to approach the PIA with, if you haven't already, so the standard can be changed to reflect this. Maybe two placarded speeds, the one that the canopy can sustain and the one that the canopy will allow the jumper to sustain.
this is very important. doesn't this bother you. it is missleading.
>So are many of your comments, that bothers me as well. More input from other manufacurers would be good. It would help keep things in check.
most people assume that the rating means it is safe to open up to that figure.
>I thought most people understand the rating to mean the canopy has been tested to withstand opening at that speed. Perhaps I have been wrong. It is pretty subjective and I know of no study that would support either of us.
for many canopies it is not.
>See, you make a claim here. Now support it. What canopies and what are the details. According to the review in Parachutist, even the Cobalt can slam you. Of course that is only if has been wet or is an "anomaly".
neck injuries ranging from whiplash to death, detached retina's, etc.. are more common than you would think.
>I think they may be fairly common, but then I haven't seen any study that provides reliable information on this.
the useful data for determining if a jumper may be harmed by opening force is the force/time curve.
i have scans taken on our canopies and many others, there are distint differences between canopies. some are good, some less, and some are unsafe. the genie is out of the bag so to speak.
>If you have real evidence of unsafe canopies and don't share it, who are you helping? Perhaps your evidence would not withstand the scrutiny of a lawsuit.
almost every major parachute and container manufacture at the pia asked asked us to quote them on an sdas.
>What manufacturers and who were the actual representatives?
we are building them now for other manufacturers to help offset the hugh initial r&d cost to design and build, but mainly also because it will create a level playing field. instead of manufacturers advertising un substantiated
claims
>The first canopy addressing the needs of freeflyers. Max deployment speed 160mph
>a peak decelleration of about 6 Gs, significantly less than many other modern skydiving canopies
....are a few examples that come to mind.
or saying if your canopy opens hard you must be packing wrong....
>We all know who does this. I know of one company that calls it an anomaly.
jumpers will have empirical data on the differences between products to make up their own mind.
Atair has deliberatly not published scans yet (but definately our sdas has been demonstrated and data shown to people in the industry) as we are in the process of involving individuals and associations for further tests. i do not want any posibility for someone to point bias, or create a situation where a more powerful company in the industry could come in and steal our thunder so to speak. additionally there is still allot of work left to be done. medically what force/time is acceptable is still a bit grey. we are inferring from studies done in the automobile industry and some military parachute studies...etc...we want
i think its funny that you think i am putting out "puffery"
>I don't think it is funny and I substantiated it.

i try to be educational in my posts and of course being with atair, i cant post without it being at least a slight plug. but i would think this is more good than not. wouldn't you like to see all manufacturers active on this list. i think we all stand to learn allot.
>Yes, I would like to see more manufacurers active in this forum. We could all benefit and it would provide some balance.
demo's: fax in a demo' request off our home page and the office will schedule it for you.
>No thanks. You gave Sangiro your word and I would expect you to keep it without me having to now fax in a request.
alan

[ramon 0]

ROFLMAO. The worst kept secret in skydiving.
"or saying if your canopy opens hard you must be packing wrong...."
"We all know who does this. I know of one company that calls it an anomaly."
Ramon

[cobaltdan 0]

Yes, I would like to see more manufacurers active in this forum. We could all benefit and it would provide some balance.
- i assume more manufacturers are not active because they have better things to do than deal with antoganistic posts.
demo's: fax in a demo' request off our home page and the office will schedule it for you.
No thanks. You gave Sangiro your word and I would expect you to keep it without me having to now fax in a request.
- i offered sangiro to send a demo just the same as anyone else that wants to try one.
our demo request form must be filled out, signed and faxed in.
sincerely,
dan
atair

[alan 1]

- i assume more manufacturers are not active because they have better things to do than deal with antoganistic posts.

I'm sorry you feel my posts are antagonistic, I had hoped they would simply provide some balance and as the moderator of this forum I feel that is one of my reponsibilities.

- i offered sangiro to send a demo just the same as anyone else that wants to try one.
our demo request form must be filled out, signed and faxed in.

Below are cut and pastes of the correspondence between Sangiro, you, and myself. You will see no mention of a faxed demo request form.

From Sangiro to me:
"Alan,

I spoke to Dan Preston. He agreed to work with you to get a demo Cobalt to
you for a review on Dropzone.com. I include his email addresses below.
Please contact him directly to figure out the details and the logistics.
Keep me posted and let me know if there's anything I can do to help make
this happen.

Dan - thank you for agreeing to do this. We appreciate the opportunity!

Dan Preston: atairusa@mail.com

Safe swoops
Sangiro

www.dropzone.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "d preston"
To: "sangiro"
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 12:22 PM
Subject: RE: Cobal Review for Dropzone.com


> ------Original Message------
> From: "sangiro"
> To: "Dan Preston"
> Sent: February 20, 2001 2:50:13 AM GMT
> Subject: Cobal Review for Dropzone.com
>
>
> Dan,
>
> Would you consider making a Cobalt available to Alan Binnebose for review
on
> Dropzone.com? Alan lives in Wis. Rapids and moderates my Gear and Rigging
> forum. He currently jumps an EXTreme VX 89. If you're interested I could
> get you guys in contact so you can figure out what the right canopy would
be
> for Alan to jump.
>
> I think the Cobalt is an exciting canopy that's creating a lot of buzz and
> people would love to read a proper and extensive review on the canopy.
>
> Let me know what your thoughts are.
>
> Safe swoops
> Sangiro
>
> www.dropzone.com
>
>
> hi sangiro,
>
> definately.
>
> thanks
>
> sincerely,
>
> dan
> atair
> www.xtremefly.com
> 718-596-8641 ph"

From me to you:
"Hi Dan,
I am looking forward to jumping the Cobalt and evaluating it. I live in WI
and right now the weather is not very conducive to jumping. I am hoping
that we could arrange for a canopy some time in late March or early April,
as I would like to be able to put at least 15 jumps on it. A rather
arbitrary number, but in my experience, it takes me about that to truly
start getting a good feel for a canopy beyond first impressions. Also, that
should allow you plenty of time to arrange for the canopy and minimize any
inconvenience to yourself.

I have over 1400 jumps with about 10 years experience. I have varying
numbers of jumps on a broad range of canopies marketed in the U.S.. I won't
bore you with the list unless you're curious.

I am not sure if you would like me to do a head to head type eval of a
specific canopy, or take a more general approach. Either is fine with me,
comparisons are inevitable but can be misleading as well because of weather
conditions, wing loading, etc.. You can get an idea of the type of review I
have done in the past at www.Dropzone.com in the gear reviews.

I can recall doing one on the VX and on the Talon2. There might be one or
two others as well, I can't recall. Sangiro might be able to help out here.
I intend to do a fairly extensive review that should improve and expand on
my previous examples.

The canopies I have jumped most recently besides my own are a Vengeance 107
and a Crossfire 119. You can reach me by e-mail at acbinnebose@tznet.com
or by phone at 715-421-3223 or 715-421-3134. I am looking forward to
working with you. Please let me know your thoughts and we can decide on a
canopy size and dates.

Blue Skies,
Alan Binnebose D17868"

Another rone from me to you:
"I am anxious to review the Cobalt for you and the attachment is the
correspondence I received and sent regarding this. Thank you in advance for
any help or technical information you can provide.

Blue Skies,
Alan Binnebose D17868"

Your reply:
"i could not open the attachment, it came accross as gobbly gook below.


ps. send me your address and we will be glad to send you literature and a
video cd of the high speed openings.

sincerely,

dan"

Again, I never intended to be antagonistic, only to keep the information here factual and balanced.


alan

[jaybird 0]

Just have to say one thing. Love my new crossfire.

[Stacy 0]

I've jumped both canopies. No negatives about either of them at all. They fly very similarly with only minute in my opinion differences. I've jumped both in sizes that make my wing loading about 1.3-1.4.
Stacy
http://astro.temple.edu/~sweeks

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Alan,
I am sure you did not intend to come off as sounding antagonistic. I have followed your posts in this forum as well as rec.skydiving for some time now, and have not witnessed anything untoward from you. I will say, though, that the cut-and-paste-athon that has gone on concerning your dealings with Dan on this subject is pretty out of hand. Certainly, it could have been squared away via telephone or private E-mail. I myself am now guilty of propagating the diatribe, which kind of bums me out. Dan is the sole US distributor for Atair; he does not make the parachutes in Red Hook. As such, he obviously pays for his parachutes. You cannot expect the man to just blind-send a main to you, or anyone else, regardless of stature in this sport without first getting some sort of paperwork done; a demo request in this instance. It is not a big deal, it only takes a minute, and you certainly should not be taking it as a personal affront.
Once you get that done and receive your canopy I am sure you will be pleasantly surprised. I would probably get a 95 since you are jumping an 89 VX, though you could probably easily get away with an 85.
Concerning bias, especially in this case: You need to meet Dan in person and check out his testing equipment. It really is neat stuff, and Dan is the last person who would spout unfounded information; it is not in his nature. He is very interested in spreading the wealth and is all about safety and proper reporting. Playing on semantics has failed on all counts (by both sides) in this instance. Once again, I am sure no harm was intended, but perception is reality; especially, it seems, in print.
Have a good day, Sir.
Feel free to respond to me directly.
Chuck Blue
D-12501

[cobaltdan 0]

hi alan,
one final note on this thread.
the demo request form is a contract and contains content to protect atair in the event that the demo canopy is lost or a jumper hurt. a disclaimer must be executed and although the demo's are free the shiping costs are to be covered via cc.
you seem to have taken my request that you fill out the form personally.
that sould not be the case. this form is required for everyone requesting a demo.
you would not take offense if a dz said you could not jump without getting a similar form on file.
so please do not take offense from us, none intended.
sincerely,
dan
atair
www.extremefly.com

[sangiro 26]

Gentlemen - we all now it's time to wrap this one up. I do appreciate and value your participation on these forums. You guys bring a wealth of knowledge and information. This forum is about gear, not people. You are teachers - remember that. Safe swoops
Sangiro

[craddock 0]

I have demoed plenty of canopies including the Cobalt 95 without filling out or signing anything. These include the highest performance canopies that all of the major manufacturers have to offer(with the exception of the VX which I will probably take a chance and buy). To be fair, some of these were at boogies that normally do not require paperwork, but both the samurai(awesome canopy; but the smallest one they make is a 95) and the Cobalt(also a very nice canopy) were given to me outside of a boogie without paperwork. As much as I liked the Cobalt, I did not buy one. I have purchased an canopy since then and am looking to purchase a different one.
Alan is very fair with his comments on this topic. I have seen several canopies purchased in the last few months that would have been Cobalts if only things would have been different.
Blue Skies,
J
One more note- I found myself having to deploy my FX85 this weekend at a very high rate of speed. I had no choice and was expecting to get punished because of it, but to my suprise it was a beautiful painless opening. Now I will admit that I have been slammed under this canopy when I have let someone else pack it and even my own pack job when I was careless with the slippery new thing. I have learned how to make it open slow. I also did not buy this canopy for its opening characteristics. On the other hand, my first few jumps on the Cobalt were very uncomfortable. It was not until I hardly rolled the tail and starting deploying at a high speed that I got to appreciate the openings. I had to learn how to speed the openings up! At that point I can say it is an amazing canopy as far as openings are concerned. I would not however want to find my self at a low altitude on an rw jump without having time to build up a tremendous amount of speed under a Cobalt. Still if you are buying on opening characteristics, this canopy will most likely meet your needs.
Edited by craddock on 5/1/01 07:33 PM.