Atmonauti

[madhatter 0]

Guess, you're right. Maybe that's where the rest of the discussion started - semantics. Aerodynamics vs airfoil, etc. The real question is whether LIFT is actually generated.


Wikipedia - Lift Force:

"In any case causing lift; an angled flat plate, revolving cylinder, airfoil, etc... Flow meeting the leading edge of the object is forced to split, over and under the object. The sudden change in direction over the object, causes an area of low pressure to form behind the leading edge on the upper surface of the object. In turn, due to this pressure gradient and the viscosity of the fluid, the flow over the object is accelerated down along the upper surface of the object. At the same time the flow forced under the object is rapidly slowed or stagnated, causing an area of high pressure. This also causes the flow to accelerate along the upper surface of the object. The two sections of the fluid each leave the trailing edge of the object with a downward component of momentum, producing lift."




As stated previously - I've got no problem with atmonauti, I would just like to see it developed & explained properly. It's obvious from this thread that there are a few of us cynics out there & we'd appreciate some proof. Not the same argument / statement over & over again, not photo's, not figures, PROOF. Atmonauti in a windtunnel with smoke, showing that lift is actually generated, as has been shown with wingsuits. Being able to stay airborn in a windtunnel at substantially lower windspeeds than needed for RW/freeflying. Something like that might be convincing

The question remains if it is to be considered as a seperate dicipline currently & if it warrants it's own subforum.

[mciocca 0]

From the equipment being used these pics look a lot more recent than you say they are

The Sky's Our Playground

[DJL 235]

All. I have proved that Atmonauti produces more lift than a space rocket. See the attached picture. What else do you need?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[sundevil777 102]

The claim from the diagrams if very clear - that you can fly at a trajectory (actual path) of 10 deg from the horizontal, and that their path through the sky matches their body orientation.

This is of course pure bullshit. I believe that atmonauti proponents don't understand how insulting this claim is to those that understand physics and aerodynamics. The human body is not nearly efficient enough to obtain a 10 deg flight path.

If a 'nautinaut could fly at a true trajectory of 10 deg from horizontal, and their verical speed was 70 mph (I think this is within the range of 'nautinauts claims) then their horizontal speed would be 70/tan10=397mph. Even if you apply this to a 20 deg path, the horizontal speed would be 192 mph. This is of course pure bullshit.

A short piece of ribbon trailing from the foot of a 'nautinaut proves nothing because the local burble doesn't represent the true flight path. A trail of smoke across the sky at 10 degrees from horizontal would be different.

I propose that the term 'nautinaut be applied to those that continue to make such absurd claims.

'nautinauts would do better to simply claim that they are having fun and that others should try it.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[pilotdave 0]

In his defense, he did say the 10 degrees represents the pitchmonauti angle of the atmonaut, not the flightmonauti path. The diagrams all show 0 angle of attackmonauti, but that's just for artistic purposes and in reality they always have some positive angle of attack. So they do use "relative gravitational wind" like tracknauts, freeflynauts, and RWnauts, but they pretend not to, but only in all of their diagrams. Marco admitted the truthmonauti above.
Dave

[sundevil777 102]

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In his defense, he did say the 10 degrees represents the pitchmonauti angle of the atmonaut, not the flightmonauti path. The diagrams all show 0 angle of attackmonauti, but that's just for artistic purposes and in reality they always have some positive angle of attack. So they do use "relative gravitational wind" like tracknauts, freeflynauts, and RWnauts, but they pretend not to, but only in all of their diagrams. Marco admitted the truthmonauti above.
Dave

The entire basis of the assertion that 'nautmonauts are doing something so special is the claim that they get so much more lift than others have done in tracking dives. This claim is without a basis in truth. To merely acknowledge that there is "some" positive angle of attack does not admit to the large magnitude of the deception.

And that's the truthmonauti

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[labrys 0]

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From the equipment being used these pics look a lot more recent than you say they are

The equipment is more recent than last Sunday? Unless I missed something, that's when he said he took the pictures.

Owned by Remi #?

[mciocca 0]

Whats the point of your continued attack on atmo?

It would be so much better if you had something worthwhile to add to the benefit of all the students out there other than ridiculing the discipline.

The Sky's Our Playground

[mciocca 0]

***f a 'nautinaut could fly at a true trajectory of 10 deg from horizontal, and their verical speed was 70 mph (I think this is within the range of 'nautinauts claims)

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This is not what is being claimed.

At 10 degrees the forward speed is too low to produce an efficient lift coefficient for longer than a short while (it results in a stall) and is rarely utilised other than to approach formations from behind or below (no fly zones), thus the most common angle of flight is 45 degrees, which is where most of the flying is done. However, it is possible to fly flatter and steeper than 45.

If you read the posts you will see that 90mph is the most common speed at around 45 degrees on "half brakes" when taking docks etc.

Try it out you may surprise yourself.

The Sky's Our Playground

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[mciocca 0]

***The entire basis of the assertion that 'nautmonauts are doing something so special is the claim that they get so much more lift than others have done in tracking dives. This claim is without a basis in truth. To merely acknowledge that there is "some" positive angle of attack does not admit to the large magnitude of the deception.

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Let me guess...you're another one of the skygods who has a lot to say but has never even attempted atmo or taken the time to get Atmo instructionals/coaching. Am I right?

It reminds me of the FS crowd years back, who had a lot to say about head down but had never even attempted it...

First educate yourself, train, and then your comments will be valuable assets to the students of atmonauti. For now all you're doing is using this forum (as with many others) to attack, defame and destabalise the hard work of many. How is that constructive to our sport? It aint.

The Sky's Our Playground

[sundevil777 102]

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It reminds me of the FS crowd years back, who had a lot to say about head down but had never even attempted it...

I don't recall what was being said (you're implying it was negative) about head down flyers. I recall being envious because I was so lousy at it, they made it look so easy. Of course I didn't practice it much at all, and I made traditional RW look easy, and they were often lousy at that. I do know that head down flyers weren't making absurd claims about their flight path. When you post fancy diagrams that directly claim that your trajectory matches your body orientation through a huge range of angles, don't get in a snit when you find yourself the object of ridicule, because you deserve it.

I really don't mean to be confrontational, steep tracking dives look like a lot of fun. I would participate with a good group, it would certainly be a hoot!

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[stratostar 5]

Cliff your such a skygodmoaut!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[mciocca 0]

***when you post fancy diagrams that directly claim that your trajectory matches your body orientation through a huge range of angles, don't get in a snit when you find yourself the object of ridicule, because you deserve it.

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Your comments ARE confrontational.

However, it takes a lot more than an insult from an uneducated member of our community to get me in a "snit".

"Atmonauts" - who are clearly passionate about Atmonauti - are actively pursuing an approach of presenting whatever information is available to the general community and trying to instill a policy if safe flying procedures - for which, according to you, they are being ridiculed for doing so, and deserve it.

Are you suggesting we let loose a rouge discipline with no information and safety procedures, and no forum for the exchange of beliefs, ideas and informative information?

PS If you are so lousy at head down like you say you are, and clearly have never tried atmo for yourself or taken the time to train/educate yourself, what makes you think informed individuals of our community are going to take your comments seriously?

Later dude.

The Sky's Our Playground

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[sundevil777 102]

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Are you suggesting we let loose a rouge discipline with no information and safety procedures, and no forum for the exchange of beliefs, ideas and informative information?

No, just that the outrageous claims stop, publishing a revision to the diagrams would help.

As I said, steep tracking dives look like a lot of fun, it is cool that people are pursuing it.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Maxx 1]

Hey everyone,

Borrow a GPS unit, like a wintec wbt-201. Mount it on your helmet or container. Do some atmonauti dives with it.
Post the data here in this forum for everyone to see.
Hard data leaves no room for interpretation or speculation!

End of discussion.


Max

[Zenister 0]

rotflmao.

next they will be demanding a 5th corner be constructed in the hanger so their clic will have its own place to hang out in.

Physics.
Learn it, because all the pretty power point slides and silly invented terminology in the world will not change a bit of it.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[mciocca 0]

Zenister... this is where you've got it wrong.

It aint a click at all, its for everyone, thats why the atmo progression is posted under the instructors section, and why some have taken their time to post informative information in answer to many of the defamatory remarks.

You have to appreciate that with anything new there will always be objections, for which reason some of us (who have nothing to gain other than seeing more of our friends joining us on our atmo loads) are taking the time to present what atmo could offer.

As for the physics - there is more than sufficient info to back up the statements, however the physics are not he important part, its the fun to be had, and the ability for all of us to delve into a new sphere of learning unlike traditional freefall.

Try it, or dont try it, its your call but try to refrain from commenting until you've actually tried it. You may well change your mind.

The Sky's Our Playground

[Zenister 0]

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try to refrain from commenting until you've actually tried it. You may well change your mind.

ah thats good then, since I have tried it I do feel free to comment.

Certainly its fun, however many of the claims made are simply silly as is the need to invent 'cool new terminology' for it, but whatever floats your boat.

The diagrams offered thus far, particularly the ones that propose relative wind coming from anything other than generally down, are what invites the laughter. Using Pseudo scientific terms and powerpoint slides are evidence of nothing but the desire to believe.

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Borrow a GPS unit, like a wintec wbt-201. Mount it on your helmet or container. Do some atmonauti dives with it.
Post the data here in this forum for everyone to see.
Hard data leaves no room for interpretation or speculation!

Do this and come back. Its not hard to predict the results with the basic application of physics. The results are clearly evident even in photographs and videos of the 'discipline' where smoke is used.

How it 'feels to you' is irrelevant to gravity.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[yoink 321]

For my understanding, If your diagrams are correct shouldn't the smoke in this picture be following the dotted blue line rather than the white one?

[base_nz 0]

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.

Try it, or dont try it, its your call but try to refrain from commenting until you've actually tried it. You may well change your mind.

Change my mind about what..... Physics .

Everyone i know that has tried it loves it...and i will be spending a good chunk of my time in the future to get good at it!

But your posts are hurting the cause rather than helping?...... Im sure that most of the people you are calling uneducated are a lot more educated in this field then you........

Just because i have jumped ALTMO does not mean i am going to change my opinion of the laws of Physics.

I hope that this sort of attitude (lack of info ) isnt commonplace in ALTMO otherwise you will find yourself creating a separation between jumpers rather than helping people enjoy a different form of flight.

Old Isaac had a few good ideas on the subject......but then again he never tried ALTMO

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[RhondaLea 4]

...a flying tractor to move the sky around, and bill von to explain it.

Thank you all for a read worthy of rec.skydiving in the mid-90s. This is hilarious.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Scoop 0]

To bump this thread a little and add some further support to the original poster....

I think this thread as well as the other recent Atmonauti thread have proved that it would probably be worthwhile to have its own sub-category. I'm intending on learning seriously and would like to have an opportunity to read and discuss without unconstructive comments from others who have no interest in the topic.

So I'm another FOR.

[mnealtx 0]

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opportunity to read and discuss without unconstructive comments from others who have no interest in the topic.

And a separate sub-forum would, if anywhere, be under freeflying, because that's what it is in a nutshell.

Then we'd have to have "sit" "head" and whatever other style subfora, as well (to be fair)...all of which would do NOTHING to prevent people from coming in and pointing out that cool-sounding theories and enthusiasm still don't trump physics.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Scoop 0]

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Then we'd have to have "sit" "head" and whatever other style subfora, as well (to be fair)...all of which would do NOTHING to prevent people from coming in and pointing out that cool-sounding theories and enthusiasm still don't trump physics.

No you wouldn't because they are more vertical, 'down-the-tube' type jumps.

As it progresses and people post more they will have to prefix their title with ATMO or similar to attract the attention to the right people.

Personally I don't care about this physics debate and people that sit here with nothing better to do than make up witty retorts should stop wanking over how clever they are and get their withered little hand off the computer mouse.

What I do acknowledge is that it does require skills unlike other forms of freeflying, there are specific safety requirements for Atmo jumps, their is already an outline of moves/transitions/flight positions and I'd like to have an opportunity to discuss that with like minded people without having to filter through all the crap.

[mnealtx 0]

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Then we'd have to have "sit" "head" and whatever other style subfora, as well (to be fair)...all of which would do NOTHING to prevent people from coming in and pointing out that cool-sounding theories and enthusiasm still don't trump physics.

No you wouldn't because they are more vertical, 'down-the-tube' type jumps.

If you make a sub-forum for ONE type of freeflying, it's only fair to make sub-fora for ALL the types.

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As it progresses and people post more they will have to prefix their title with ATMO or similar to attract the attention to the right people.

And your point is?

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Personally I don't care about this physics debate and people that sit here with nothing better to do than make up witty retorts should stop wanking over how clever they are and get their withered little hand off the computer mouse.

The same holds true in the reverse, with "witty retorts" about "relative gravitational wind". All the buzzwords in the world STILL doesn't trump physics or aerodynamics.

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What I do acknowledge is that it does require skills unlike other forms of freeflying, there are specific safety requirements for Atmo jumps, their is already an outline of moves/transitions/flight positions and I'd like to have an opportunity to discuss that with like minded people without having to filter through all the crap.

Then put an ATMO tag in your thread title and encourage others to do the same - problem solved. But oddly enough, the ATMO proponents keep talking about how EASY and safe it is and teaching people ATMO right off of student status... so which is it?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706