RogerRamjet 0 #26 November 4, 2005 Here is the link to the picture from my previous post. Look at Greg (on the right). Note there are two straps (besides the leg strap) coming from the back pad area, one by his elbow and one between that one and the leg strap. One is the belly band (by the elbow), the other is the strap that runs from leg strap crossing point to leg strap crossing point through the back pad. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/gallery/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Personal_Galleries/RogerRamjet/Blast_from_the_Past&image=RogTraciGreg-2.jpg&img=&tt= If this strap exists on modern gear, it must be so high now that you can slide out under it... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #27 November 4, 2005 Good post Mr. Booth. It makes perfect sense why sky diving gear has evolved to the point of being dangerous. Looking cool isn't worth getting killed over, but yet most of us still jump what is fashionable at the time.....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #28 November 4, 2005 I know of at least 1 Vector3 container out there with a belly band. The owner loves it and says his rig is more secure on him with it then with out it. No need to worry about handels shifting either.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #29 November 4, 2005 Skydiving magazine ran an add a few months ago for a removable belly band add-on. I can't remember the url though... Patrick De Gayardon skysurfed with a Vector 3 with a built-in belly band. Here is that belly-band thread, BTW: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1623684#1623684 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RogerRamjet 0 #30 November 4, 2005 QuoteI know of at least 1 Vector3 container out there with a belly band. The owner loves it and says his rig is more secure on him with it then with out it. No need to worry about handels shifting either. I guess the belly band would help, I think we made them from type-8. The lateral band a spoke of was made of the same material as the rest of the harness, type-13 I believe. BTW: Anyone know Greg's last name in the photo I linked to above. The photo was taken in the Fall of 1978 at the Sod Farm near Tampa. He jumped there and at Z-Hills mid to late '70s. The Sod Farm was run by Cliff and Patty Dobson at the time. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #31 November 4, 2005 People, I’m cautioning you, we don’t want to see our sport start getting scrutinized and regulated by outsiders (any more than it already is), but the fact that this might (might) have caused a tandem student’s fatality makes it more likely to get the attention of the self-important busybodies in Whuffo World. Gear for the most part has evolved over the past 20 years to be safer, but current harness design might be an exception to that. Do you really think the standard pre-jump “waiver video” will cover a design defect allowing a tandem student to squirt out of the harness on canopy deployment? Well, I’ve got news for you: it won’t. We all have a responsibility to deal proactively with this issue, and that means both manufacturers and consumers. We can’t just wash our hands of the issue by saying it’s just a matter of economics, so that’s that. The auto companies tried that, and it didn’t fly; in fact, it cost them big time. They’ve been making cars increasingly safer, but sure as hell (for the most part) not on their own initiatives, but because outsiders forced them to do so. Believe me, it’s far better that we come to grips with this issue and deal with it before some whuffo with a title and an agenda steps in to do it for us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #32 November 5, 2005 QuoteDon't forget anti-inversion netting, Bill. You're right...that's actually my favorite example, because the proven benefits were so astounding, and still nobody wanted it...just because it packed up bigger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #33 November 5, 2005 The rigs in this picture all have a belly band. I always felt they made the rig feel more secure and snug. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MB38 0 #34 November 5, 2005 Wouldn't falling out of a rig through the hole that the belly band closes require a back-breaking bend at the hips? Or am I not thinking of its other effects on the harness as a whole?I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #35 November 5, 2005 QuoteWouldn't falling out of a rig through the hole that the belly band closes require a back-breaking bend at the hips? Or am I not thinking of its other effects on the harness as a whole? Among other things, a belly band provides an element of redundancy to your front - you might mis-route your chest strap (see my rant above), which could cause the whole works to snatch off your back at linestretch, but it's less likely you'll misroute both your chest strap and your belly band. Plus, a belly band snugs everything up against you tighter than not having one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #36 November 5, 2005 QuoteWouldn't falling out of a rig through the hole that the belly band closes require a back-breaking bend at the hips? Or am I not thinking of its other effects on the harness as a whole? The belly band keeps the main lift web from lifting away from the body when you bend forward at the waist. This keeps the hole in the back of the harness smaller. Mike Michigan, one of the pioneers of freestyle, had a belly band on his rig for this reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites schuey87 0 #37 November 5, 2005 IMHO, a belly band doesn't look uncool. I added one onto a couple of pics using that crappy paint program that comes with windows, albeit it quite badly, but it didn't make me think boy thats uncool. If having a belly band on every rig saved even one life wouldn't it be worth it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #38 November 6, 2005 Would belly bands such as those really be that effective on more "modern" gear with their pack-trays (ie: actual container size and orientation) being so relatively smaller (and up much higher on the jumpers back) than those you have pictured here? How would just a belly-band mod on a CURRENT Jav TJN or Mirage/Micron (or any rig designed to hold today's preponderance of sub-150's canopies) for instance, make the "hole" between the bottom of the main container and lower harness (leg straps juncture) any smaller? Also, knowing that it has been shown in some incidences that some jumpers have had problems with their EP's by pulling on lift-web, when they had THOUGHT they were pulling on their "stubborn" handles, would you think that going BACK to something like this (adding yet again a belly band or some other form of front strap) might also cause a potential HAZARD trade-off, somehow more complicating or hampering consistent & effective EP executions? Just some thoughts that come to my mind as I listen to this debate and look at these pictures. Especially as I compare those now too, to most current gear anyway, both in-use and on the market.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ncrowe 0 #39 November 6, 2005 After reading all of the recent post I decided to see how easily my custom made Infinity rig would come off of me......there's no way it could come off my shoulders i.e. headdown..but I was shocked on how easily I could get out of the "hole" I had my girlfriend help yank it up so now she's all freaked out and i must admit it's made me feel a bit uneasy ...even though I understand it's not something thats "likely" to happen.........I'm still learning to sit and I've actually had my leg straps slide foward quite a bit ....I'm pretty suprised I've never even given a second of thought of comming out of a rig but I guess until recently..edit ..I've never heard ..edit.. of it never been discussed... "Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MB38 0 #40 November 6, 2005 I went at it with a rental rig today with main in container. I could get out of both holes, but it took some work. The kind of incident that would put me in a position to fall out of that rig would probably result in some other injuries beforehand.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #41 November 7, 2005 QuoteI went at it with a rental rig today with main in container. I could get out of both holes, but it took some work. The kind of incident that would put me in a position to fall out of that rig would probably result in some other injuries beforehand. I wonder whether the fact that the main was still in the container, as well as your body dimensions (height, weight, girth, etc.) may or may not have affected your results. Just food for thought... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MB38 0 #42 November 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteI went at it with a rental rig today with main in container. I could get out of both holes, but it took some work. The kind of incident that would put me in a position to fall out of that rig would probably result in some other injuries beforehand. I wonder whether the fact that the main was still in the container, as well as your body dimensions (height, weight, girth, etc.) may or may not have affected your results. Just food for thought... I imagine that's exactly what affected my results as compared to the other [larger] container with no main. I have no doubt that this varies person by person, rig by rig and conditions by conditions.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites point_code 0 #43 November 11, 2005 I had my first hard opening a couple weeks ago, and I'm still abit sore and bruised from it. Anyhow it got me to thinking, and I wondered if it was posssible to fall out of the harness had I been in a sitting position. I also thought about a time early on when I hadn't properly adjusted my rig and rode the canopy down with a chet strap in my throat. what's my point you might ask?...... well, I concluded that had I been able to fall out of the harness thru the bottom, it probably would have broken my neck in the process meaning that it wouldn't likely be survivable anyhow. Just a rookies thought. feel free to comment Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JonDerungs 0 #44 August 13, 2008 just found this old thread. was just wondering if this is still an issue.Never regret anything you've done! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites redlegphi 0 #45 August 13, 2008 Quotejust found this old thread. was just wondering if this is still an issue. There are some better threads around that discuss this. I'd suggest searching for them. Short answer is yes, you can call out of your harness if you don't have the proper equipment for the discipline you're flying or if the equipment is not being properly operated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #46 August 14, 2008 Suggestions that the industry modify its "standard" design of harness to make the potential "hole" in the back, or the potential single, mis-routed chest strap, less of an issue, fall on deaf ears. It's like being Noah. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gato 0 #47 August 14, 2008 Doesn't Bill Booth offer belly bands on the Vector III? I know he's been an advocate of them for a while, now. They used to be standard on the old B4s, weren't they? IIRC, he's under the impression that, to most of us, belly bands are not cool, and we wouldn't use them. I'm not opposed to the idea, although I don't think my fat ass will ever fall out of a standard harness.T.I.N.S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #48 August 14, 2008 Most people tend to buy whatever is offered as standard equipment. Some people say the gear mfgrs just respond to the desires of the marketplace. I think that's a weak excuse, and hold gear designers and mfgrs, collectively, morally responsible for not putting out a standard, industry-wide design of sport harness that is safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #49 August 14, 2008 Belly bands are most helpful on larger rigs, to prevent the container from "washing" sideways in freefall. Which is why belly bands are standard on military freefall rigs and a few of the bigger student rigs (e.g. Telesis 3 from Rigging Innovations). Belly bands reduce the risk of falling butt-first out of a harness by holding the hip joints/rings where they should be: covering your iliac crests. When designing the Sigma student harness, Bill Booth learned that the best belly bands ride quite low, too low to press on the abdomen and too low to induce vomiting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,030 #50 August 14, 2008 >and hold gear designers and mfgrs, collectively, morally responsible >for not putting out a standard, industry-wide design of sport harness that >is safer. Eh, I don't know of any manufacturers that have steel cables to back up the nylon in their harnesses - even though harnesses have been damaged by battery acid in the past. Is that a failing on their part? I don't think so, because people don't die by falling out of disintegrating harnesses. Likewise with the "hole" in the bottom of the harness. People generally don't fall out of sport rigs that way, and thus the current solution (the bungee mod) is sufficient. Most rigs _do_ come with that nowadays. 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RogerRamjet 0 #30 November 4, 2005 QuoteI know of at least 1 Vector3 container out there with a belly band. The owner loves it and says his rig is more secure on him with it then with out it. No need to worry about handels shifting either. I guess the belly band would help, I think we made them from type-8. The lateral band a spoke of was made of the same material as the rest of the harness, type-13 I believe. BTW: Anyone know Greg's last name in the photo I linked to above. The photo was taken in the Fall of 1978 at the Sod Farm near Tampa. He jumped there and at Z-Hills mid to late '70s. The Sod Farm was run by Cliff and Patty Dobson at the time. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #31 November 4, 2005 People, I’m cautioning you, we don’t want to see our sport start getting scrutinized and regulated by outsiders (any more than it already is), but the fact that this might (might) have caused a tandem student’s fatality makes it more likely to get the attention of the self-important busybodies in Whuffo World. Gear for the most part has evolved over the past 20 years to be safer, but current harness design might be an exception to that. Do you really think the standard pre-jump “waiver video” will cover a design defect allowing a tandem student to squirt out of the harness on canopy deployment? Well, I’ve got news for you: it won’t. We all have a responsibility to deal proactively with this issue, and that means both manufacturers and consumers. We can’t just wash our hands of the issue by saying it’s just a matter of economics, so that’s that. The auto companies tried that, and it didn’t fly; in fact, it cost them big time. They’ve been making cars increasingly safer, but sure as hell (for the most part) not on their own initiatives, but because outsiders forced them to do so. Believe me, it’s far better that we come to grips with this issue and deal with it before some whuffo with a title and an agenda steps in to do it for us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #32 November 5, 2005 QuoteDon't forget anti-inversion netting, Bill. You're right...that's actually my favorite example, because the proven benefits were so astounding, and still nobody wanted it...just because it packed up bigger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #33 November 5, 2005 The rigs in this picture all have a belly band. I always felt they made the rig feel more secure and snug. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #34 November 5, 2005 Wouldn't falling out of a rig through the hole that the belly band closes require a back-breaking bend at the hips? Or am I not thinking of its other effects on the harness as a whole?I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #35 November 5, 2005 QuoteWouldn't falling out of a rig through the hole that the belly band closes require a back-breaking bend at the hips? Or am I not thinking of its other effects on the harness as a whole? Among other things, a belly band provides an element of redundancy to your front - you might mis-route your chest strap (see my rant above), which could cause the whole works to snatch off your back at linestretch, but it's less likely you'll misroute both your chest strap and your belly band. Plus, a belly band snugs everything up against you tighter than not having one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #36 November 5, 2005 QuoteWouldn't falling out of a rig through the hole that the belly band closes require a back-breaking bend at the hips? Or am I not thinking of its other effects on the harness as a whole? The belly band keeps the main lift web from lifting away from the body when you bend forward at the waist. This keeps the hole in the back of the harness smaller. Mike Michigan, one of the pioneers of freestyle, had a belly band on his rig for this reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
schuey87 0 #37 November 5, 2005 IMHO, a belly band doesn't look uncool. I added one onto a couple of pics using that crappy paint program that comes with windows, albeit it quite badly, but it didn't make me think boy thats uncool. If having a belly band on every rig saved even one life wouldn't it be worth it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #38 November 6, 2005 Would belly bands such as those really be that effective on more "modern" gear with their pack-trays (ie: actual container size and orientation) being so relatively smaller (and up much higher on the jumpers back) than those you have pictured here? How would just a belly-band mod on a CURRENT Jav TJN or Mirage/Micron (or any rig designed to hold today's preponderance of sub-150's canopies) for instance, make the "hole" between the bottom of the main container and lower harness (leg straps juncture) any smaller? Also, knowing that it has been shown in some incidences that some jumpers have had problems with their EP's by pulling on lift-web, when they had THOUGHT they were pulling on their "stubborn" handles, would you think that going BACK to something like this (adding yet again a belly band or some other form of front strap) might also cause a potential HAZARD trade-off, somehow more complicating or hampering consistent & effective EP executions? Just some thoughts that come to my mind as I listen to this debate and look at these pictures. Especially as I compare those now too, to most current gear anyway, both in-use and on the market.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ncrowe 0 #39 November 6, 2005 After reading all of the recent post I decided to see how easily my custom made Infinity rig would come off of me......there's no way it could come off my shoulders i.e. headdown..but I was shocked on how easily I could get out of the "hole" I had my girlfriend help yank it up so now she's all freaked out and i must admit it's made me feel a bit uneasy ...even though I understand it's not something thats "likely" to happen.........I'm still learning to sit and I've actually had my leg straps slide foward quite a bit ....I'm pretty suprised I've never even given a second of thought of comming out of a rig but I guess until recently..edit ..I've never heard ..edit.. of it never been discussed... "Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #40 November 6, 2005 I went at it with a rental rig today with main in container. I could get out of both holes, but it took some work. The kind of incident that would put me in a position to fall out of that rig would probably result in some other injuries beforehand.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #41 November 7, 2005 QuoteI went at it with a rental rig today with main in container. I could get out of both holes, but it took some work. The kind of incident that would put me in a position to fall out of that rig would probably result in some other injuries beforehand. I wonder whether the fact that the main was still in the container, as well as your body dimensions (height, weight, girth, etc.) may or may not have affected your results. Just food for thought... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #42 November 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteI went at it with a rental rig today with main in container. I could get out of both holes, but it took some work. The kind of incident that would put me in a position to fall out of that rig would probably result in some other injuries beforehand. I wonder whether the fact that the main was still in the container, as well as your body dimensions (height, weight, girth, etc.) may or may not have affected your results. Just food for thought... I imagine that's exactly what affected my results as compared to the other [larger] container with no main. I have no doubt that this varies person by person, rig by rig and conditions by conditions.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
point_code 0 #43 November 11, 2005 I had my first hard opening a couple weeks ago, and I'm still abit sore and bruised from it. Anyhow it got me to thinking, and I wondered if it was posssible to fall out of the harness had I been in a sitting position. I also thought about a time early on when I hadn't properly adjusted my rig and rode the canopy down with a chet strap in my throat. what's my point you might ask?...... well, I concluded that had I been able to fall out of the harness thru the bottom, it probably would have broken my neck in the process meaning that it wouldn't likely be survivable anyhow. Just a rookies thought. feel free to comment Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JonDerungs 0 #44 August 13, 2008 just found this old thread. was just wondering if this is still an issue.Never regret anything you've done! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #45 August 13, 2008 Quotejust found this old thread. was just wondering if this is still an issue. There are some better threads around that discuss this. I'd suggest searching for them. Short answer is yes, you can call out of your harness if you don't have the proper equipment for the discipline you're flying or if the equipment is not being properly operated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #46 August 14, 2008 Suggestions that the industry modify its "standard" design of harness to make the potential "hole" in the back, or the potential single, mis-routed chest strap, less of an issue, fall on deaf ears. It's like being Noah. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gato 0 #47 August 14, 2008 Doesn't Bill Booth offer belly bands on the Vector III? I know he's been an advocate of them for a while, now. They used to be standard on the old B4s, weren't they? IIRC, he's under the impression that, to most of us, belly bands are not cool, and we wouldn't use them. I'm not opposed to the idea, although I don't think my fat ass will ever fall out of a standard harness.T.I.N.S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #48 August 14, 2008 Most people tend to buy whatever is offered as standard equipment. Some people say the gear mfgrs just respond to the desires of the marketplace. I think that's a weak excuse, and hold gear designers and mfgrs, collectively, morally responsible for not putting out a standard, industry-wide design of sport harness that is safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #49 August 14, 2008 Belly bands are most helpful on larger rigs, to prevent the container from "washing" sideways in freefall. Which is why belly bands are standard on military freefall rigs and a few of the bigger student rigs (e.g. Telesis 3 from Rigging Innovations). Belly bands reduce the risk of falling butt-first out of a harness by holding the hip joints/rings where they should be: covering your iliac crests. When designing the Sigma student harness, Bill Booth learned that the best belly bands ride quite low, too low to press on the abdomen and too low to induce vomiting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,030 #50 August 14, 2008 >and hold gear designers and mfgrs, collectively, morally responsible >for not putting out a standard, industry-wide design of sport harness that >is safer. Eh, I don't know of any manufacturers that have steel cables to back up the nylon in their harnesses - even though harnesses have been damaged by battery acid in the past. Is that a failing on their part? I don't think so, because people don't die by falling out of disintegrating harnesses. Likewise with the "hole" in the bottom of the harness. People generally don't fall out of sport rigs that way, and thus the current solution (the bungee mod) is sufficient. Most rigs _do_ come with that nowadays. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
