Spectre & low wing loading?

[freeflir29 0]

"I'd sugest looking for a Sabre with a small slider"
Heheehehehehee.......Yep....No snivel to be found......
"Carb Heat On....Carb Heat On.....Carb Heat On..."-Phil Polstra Clay

[Geoff 0]

Sorry, I'm getting confused (but I think you are too - it's easily done with a long thread!). We were talking about the Sabre2, not the Spectre or Sabre.
The Sabre2 is definitely tapered, but there's only one figure for chord on the PD website. Dunno why.
Geoff

[mnischalke 0]

Ahhhh IC

[skybytch 273]

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It sniveled forever, usually as it spun in some line twists.

Packing error or body position. I've got 50+ jumps on Spectres at 1.1-1.18 and have never had line twists... but then again I have 800 jumps... and I've been whacked enough times by various other canopies to have learned to appreciate a 900-1000 foot opening. But I can see how someone still on student status might be unnerved by it; after all at 3-9 jumps most people just want to see a canopy out regardless of if the opening is painful or not.

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It was sluggish (based on the Silhouette as a reference) in turns

Comparing a Spectre 230 to a Silhouette 210 is comparing apples to oranges. If you're going to say one is sluggish and the other isn't you need to have jumped both types at the same wing loading. Having jumped both a Spectre 150 (approx 50 jumps) and a Silhouette 150 (approx 30 jumps) I have to disagree with you on that one.

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and the desent rate was so much higher, if I didn't flare at exactly the right time, I would be planted firmly onto the earth's surface.

This surprises me as I find the Spectre to be the easiest canopy to land that I've ever jumped. I've never had less than a soft stand up landing under a Spectre, and I am NOT a talented canopy pilot.
pull and flare,
lisa

[alan 1]

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It seems 1000ft from pitch to a flying canopy is pretty normal.

I see and hear this type of comment quite often regarding the Spectre and a few other canopies. It is mostly based on hearsay, intuition, debateable protrac readings, or a couple of quick glances at an altimeter. I have videotaped several of these _1000'_ openings and have found that the tape indicates that they are actually in the 600' to 800' range. Remember, you are going about 176'/sec when you look at your altimeter, there is typically some "lag" in it(it shows ~3000' when you are actually at ~2800'), you have to process what you see, decide to pull, wave off, then actually pull. That process usually takes about 3 secs, at 176'/sec it will put you at 2272' to 2472' before the bag even leaves the container. Now, deduct the 600' it actually takes to open (pitch to slider 2/3 down) and you have 1872. That is going to look a lot like 1800' or even 2000' to many people. Now do you see where these 1000' to 1200' openings come from? I'm not picking on the Spectre here, or any canopy for that matter, and there are always exceptions but I believe if you will do as I have done and video these openings, you will find that the 1000' opening is more fiction than fact. In the interest of accuracy and fairness, I'll e-mail John LeBlanc at PD and ask him what their test jump data revealed and post it here. Who knows, perhaps my results will turn out to be erroneous!
alan

[weid14 0]

then I agreed with you

• Quote

[alan 1]

As promised, I asked John LeBlanc about the opening distances on the Spectre. Wow! What a nice guy, he replied just a few minutes after I sent the e-mail request. Here is the relevant portion of his reply, and thank you John for the info.
"It's my pleasure to contribute when I'm asked......As for the openings, many people have no idea how fast time and altitude flies as they wave off and pull. Also, altimeters are notoriously inaccurate during pull time when a person is changing from belly flying to sit flying. (This is one reason why CYPRESes go off act between 700 and 1100 feet, even though they have a very sensitve and accurate pressure measuring device, or so say Gerard Fetter.)
An opening on a modern canopy that takes 400 feet can be painful, and one that takes 300 feet longer feels like a loooong snivel. The openings on everything we've built from the Stiletto onward take about 6-800 feet. The Silhouette tends to be a bit quicker, and the Velocity and Spectre are usually on the slower side of this figure. (We thought of
the Silhouette as sort of a PD-2, in a way. Its a great canopy, a sleeper in our product range.)
A lot of things go into the opening distance of modern canopies. I believe that things like jumpsuit size, body position while under the snivelling canopy, the way in which the jumper transitions to sitting in the harness, and even the way the jumper throws his pilot chute all effect the opening distance. (All this fits into my beginner's mind thing. No expert opinions here, just observations that lead to hunches.)
Of course there is the pilot chute variables, the line type and
condition, trim changes, canopies shrinking of stretching into a new shape over time due to environmental factors.
The Spectre has been our best selling canopy for several years, though I expect the Sabre2 to take the lead. The openings are one reason why this is true, I believe.
As for good test data, we are also limited to the available sensing devices. We use sensitive aircraft altimeters for cutaway testing of reserves, but the three needles tend to vibrate into a blur when exposed to the buffetting in freefall, so that doesn't work well on main canopies. We've had canopies come back here with the 1000 foot opening story many times over the past ten years or so. In almost every case, the canopies opened in much shorter distances and the customer's preferences or prior canopy experience led to the exaggeration. If they actually do even close to the 1000 foot mark, our test jumpers usually ask, "What the heck are the complaining about? Do they want to sell it?"
Hope this helps somewhat.
John"
I hope this helps to dispell one of the great misconceptions out there about canopy opening distances. It is a pet peeve of mine! ;-)
alan

[mnischalke 0]

(Silhouette as sort of a PD-2, in a way. Its a great canopy, a sleeper in our product range.)--yeah!
"...our test jumpers usually ask..."
Our what?? Test jumpers??? How do I apply for that job??
mike
fly nylon

[skybytch 273]

Thanks for posting that alan! Great information.

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Test jumpers??? How do I apply for that job??

Do a couple thousand more jumps then ask again.
pull and flare,
lisa

[mnischalke 0]

whew, finished--the resume is updated (wink wink).
now what? Is there like an application?
mike
fly nylon

[mnischalke 0]

Actually, Lisa, is there a way to save such feedback from the industry for easy future reference? Like an FAQ from the industry. It's kinda burried on this thread.
mike
fly nylon

[skybytch 273]

Not that I know of... good idea though, you might post that in the suggestions forum for the boss man. pull and flare,
lisa

[freeflir29 0]

"An opening on a modern canopy that takes 400 feet can be painful"
Hmmm....My PD 190 opens in 500Ft give or take, usually take, every time. I base this on the fact that I reach back and pitch at 3,000 and I rarely hear my 2500 alarm from my Time Out. When I do it's going off as I'm getting full inflation. It's not painful at all. In fact the openings are one of the things I really love about the canopy. As for the Spectre, I do remember(I guess it was you Lisa) someone saying they had put some real effort into determining the "real" opening distance of the canopy. No doubt, the Spectre is snivelly, No complaints! If you are opening so low that this is a factor you won't live very long anyway......"Carb Heat On....Carb Heat On.....Carb Heat On..."-Phil Polstra Clay

[alan 1]

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"An opening on a modern canopy that takes 400 feet can be painful"
Hmmm....My PD 190 opens in 500Ft give or take, usually take, every time.

This sounds right to me. Remember, the PD 190 is a design that is well over 10 years old (it was introduced in 1987). Technology has changed much since that design was introduced. Back then 400' to 600' openings were more the norm as opposed to todays 600' to 800'. Those openings are very accpeptable but considered "brisk" by what many of us have become accustomed to with the newer canopy designs. On your PD 190, a 400' opening would get your attention, while a 600' would have you thinking "man, that was sweet!" A 300' opening would likely leave some bruising and would certainly have you complaining about it.
As an aside, for those of you who may not be aware of it, the reason I went to John LeBlanc for information about the Spectre openings, is that he is the designer and manufacturer. John, along with Bill Coe, founded Performance Designs.
alan

[PhreeZone 20]

As a further aside... John has wrote some of the best articles on high proformance canopy fight ever published. John also wrote a very enlighting article that was published in an engineering magazine earlier this year detailing how PD designs, makes and tests canopies. He talked about how him and his staff created every piece of equipment and CAD/CAM system that is used at PD today.
I expecally liked the part about testing a new design. Basically, they program it in, tell the lasers to cut it, Go skydive a few times, come back, sew the pieces together. Then as someone is assembling it, they skydive some more, then they come back, hook up the new canopy and go test jump it for a while. Not a bad few days work if you ask me.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[dkearns 0]

What magazine was it in?

[PhreeZone 20]

Found the link on Rec. again.....
Search Result 8
From: Trowen (trowen@aol.comjump)
Subject: Interesting aticle.
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
View: (This is the only article in this thread) | Original Format
Date: 2001-09-20 16:29:39 PST

Hubby went looking for this after he saw it in a design mag.
http://www.manufacturing.net/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleID=CA155025
We want to see the "80-ft2 piece of cloth to safely land a 275-lb person"
Kudos to Kate Cooper, John LeBlanc, William Coe, Dan Poyner, & Bill Booth for
steering this reporter in the right direction!
Blue Skies,
Terri
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[dkearns 0]

Sweet. That is a good article. I need to go to a canopy manufacturer and see how they do it in real life. And while I'm there find my next X canopy.

[Kelly 0]

ill never complain about the openings under a spectre..
i was packing one day and about to shove the nose in.. i got distracted and just placed it there. a little push (barely).. stopped talking a few minutes later, pulled the tail up and around etc etc..
came time to deploy (and this is how i know it was a fast opening) and i was under a full canopy so quickly that my excess chin strap slapped me in the face (nice cut too), I winched my head to the side (it hurt!!) and hit a riser with the side of my helmet.. this was only a few jumps after my total so a fast deployment wasnt an old memory to me.. not saying at all that the spectre opened anywhere near as fast as my reserve, just that they both ended with me a little sore the next morning.
Other than that, ive jumped a spectre 46 times (tried for 47 :) and my only complaints are packer induced.. not the canopys natural characteristics.
saying 'spectre' is like saying 'sink me down quick!!' to me.. and thats one of the reasons why i brought one. I've also noticed the quick altitude loss as i downsized. less time in the air, quicker approaches to the landing area. I'm more aware of my spectre's flight characteristics since ive been to eloy. I attribute that to more experience and more awareness, a better understanding of canopy flight and the need not to re hurt myself. a big factor also was the decrease in anxiety. at home there are so many acres of trees everywhere, at eloy all i had to worry about was cactus's and dust devils.. I Felt more at ease and could put more attention on my canopy flight.
the landings are all pilot based, as with most canopies i'd imagine. I pounded in under my spectre more times than i care to admit at home. when i got to eloy, higher elevation, one size larger canopy, more awareness, a determination not to get hurt... all these factors contribuated to me having fantastic landings now. I can even experiment with the flare and still have a good feel for the canopy. It's all about your attitude, youre awareness.
http://www.geocities.com/flynfroggie/skydiving_friends.html