SkydiveMonkey 0 #1 January 17, 2002 Would there be any noticeable difference between pulling a reserve pad instead of the usual silver? Support the cause - do a skydive(r) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Geoff 0 #2 January 17, 2002 Yes - a pad is less easy to grip (you can't put your thumb through it) and can occasionally fold under the harness.It's less likely to be accidentally snagged in the plane or in freefall, which is why many freefliers use pads (a reserve deployment at freefly speeds can be fatal).Just an observation: objectors to reserve pads never seem to explain why a pad is OK for the cutaway but not for the reserve.Just my 2 eurosgeoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveMonkey 0 #3 January 17, 2002 Quote why a pad is OK for the cutaway but not for the reserve Especially as that's probably the most difficult to pull in case of a spinning mal Support the cause - do a skydive(r) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #4 January 17, 2002 Since the subject came up....Recently at Eloy a very experienced four way jumper had a mal. Cutaway, then spent the next 750 feet looking for the reserve pad. Cypres save.mho? Metal reserve handle would have saved that jumper several hundred dollars in reserve repack and new cutter. Not to mention some stress to those on the ground who saw it.pull and flare,lisa-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Geoff 0 #5 January 17, 2002 So would you recommend a metal d-ring cutaway handle as well?Genuinely curious.Geoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #6 January 17, 2002 I posted the above so that those who have soft reserve handles and those who are considering them will be aware of what can happen. It's known as being aware of the risks you're taking.No, I wouldn't recommend a metal cutaway handle (not that those are available). But as I said in a previous thread, I am looking into getting one of the soft loop cutaway handles for my rig.pull and flare,lisa-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #7 January 17, 2002 One thing I noticed with my Jav Oddsy was that the soft reserve pad differs from the cut away handle - the cutaway is a thicker, 'squishy' pad whereas the reserve handle is thinner and more 'rigid'. I think the thick cutaway handle would be much easier to grip (easier to dig the fingers into) than the reserve handle - So my question to Javelin - why the different soft handles for cutaway and reserve? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #8 January 17, 2002 >So would you recommend a metal d-ring cutaway handle as well?No, but I _would_ recommend a cutaway handle with a pocket or loop on it.Strong tandems have an excellent cutaway handle - it has a pocket on the back of it, so when you grip it, your fingers naturally slide into the pocket. It gives you a tremendous amount of leverage, which I've needed more than once. I don't think two identical handles (metal _or_ fabric) is such a hot idea, since a lot of people have a sort of right/left dyslexia, and the tactile difference is an important cue.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hisgoofyness 0 #9 January 17, 2002 i never thought of it that way; in a panic state at least the difference in materials might make a difference if you grabbed the wrong onewho knows until they are in that situation..hisgoofynessits a bird, its a plane, no wait, its one goofy s.o.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveMonkey 0 #10 January 17, 2002 That's one of the reasons I practice my reserve drills a lot. Which is more than a lot of people I know. Support the cause - do a skydive(r) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lazerq3 0 #11 January 17, 2002 Question.......I jump with a guy that said hes was told to (and he does this) pull your cutaway pillow form the velcro and rotate it 360 deg to the left and then put it back in the velcro. This causes the pillow to want to stick out away from your body so it will be easier to grab. anyone else heard of this or does this?jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #12 January 17, 2002 Thats a bad idea.... hes putting a twist in the cutaway cables that could shorten them at the top (where they are needed most) and cause a premature cutaway with the handle still attatched at the bottom. It also could lead to a hard cutaway since the pull force now is not in a straight line any more. Its a slight possibilty, but i think it would be there none the less.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skycat 0 #13 January 18, 2002 QuoteThats a bad idea.... hes putting a twist in the cutaway cables that could shorten them at the top (where they are needed most) and cause a premature cutaway with the handle still attatched at the bottom. It also could lead to a hard cutaway since the pull force now is not in a straight line any more. Its a slight possibilty, but i think it would be there none the less.Actually this is exactly what my rigger did for me when I complained that my cut away handle was pressing into my stomach and I was worried it would be hard to grab. As for a twist causing a hard pull, I don't see how since the twist is inside the pillow where my hand is on top of holding. Also, I think that if your cutaway cables are so short to begin with that you have to worry about them coming undone from doing this, you might want to think about getting some longer ones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #14 January 18, 2002 But in his case, the twist is'nt inside the Pillow, its above the pillow. I just tried it on my J2 jave (which has a twist in the pillow) Thats shorting the cables by about half an inch by my measurements. While this should'nt EVER be an issue, I've seen some cable pop out of the riser houseing when the canopy gets fliped over thier head on handing. Thats bad......I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skycat 0 #15 January 18, 2002 Hmmm...on my mirage you can't see any twists, and it didn't adjust the cables more than slightly. Maybe it's just the different manufacturing styles of the pillows. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #16 January 18, 2002 Quote I'm looking for some input from skydivers that have jumped the sabre2 and their experience with it. There isn't much in the Gear section so maybe I have more luck here. I have used a D ring once, and pillow twice......never noticed a difference in perceived pull force required.. Honestly, I didn't even think about it until after I was safely on the ground.. I had no problem whatsoever pulling the pillow reserve, and that's what I have on both of my rigs.. I also had NO PROBLEM FINDING the pillow, as some people suggest..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #17 January 18, 2002 Quote Recently at Eloy a very experienced four way jumper had a mal. Cutaway, then spent the next 750 feet looking for the reserve pad. Cypres save.mho? Metal reserve handle would have saved that jumper several hundred dollars in reserve repack and new cutter. Not to mention some stress to those on the ground who saw it. I'd be willing to bet that the jumper had the pillow folded under his harness before exit, and just never checked it.....or his harness is so ill fitting(or just loose) that there was room for the pillow to twist under the harness during a spinning malfunction.. I've only had one nasty spinning malfunction with a pillow reserve, but neither pillow even came close to tucking under the harness..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #18 January 18, 2002 >I'd be willing to bet that the jumper had the pillow folded under his harness before exit, and just never checked it.....or his harness is so ill fitting(or just loose) that there was room for the pillow to twist under the harness during >a spinning malfunction.. There are some other possible issues.Some mals cause a severe distortion of the harness; I believe it was Rick Horn who couldn't even _find_ his reserve handle during a spinning mal on a small elliptical, because his harness was distorted so much. (Fortunately he had an RSL.) In such a case (handle under your ear, for example) it is probaby going to be easier to find and pull a metal handle than a cloth one. If the lift web itself is distorted, a fabric handle will distort but a metal one will not. It it actually starts to twist, the metal handle will pop out and dangle, while the cloth one will get caught up in the twists. (and yes, people have jumped with full twists in their lift webs.)Many pillows are matched to the color of the rig, which in many cases are part of an overall "color scheme." Making your handles the same color as your jumpsuit (or even the trim on your jumpsuit) makes them very hard to find with your eyes. We had a few red student jumpsuits that we put black patches on for just that reason - so the cutaway handle would stand out.The only reason I can see anyone needing a soft reserve handle (other than fashion) is if there's a serious possibility of snagging something in the handle. Making the reserve handle intentionally harder to pull is not something that should be done lightly - we learned that lesson with blast handles in the 70's.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites apoil 0 #19 January 19, 2002 QuoteJust an observation: objectors to reserve pads never seem to explain why a pad is OK for the cutaway but not for the reserve.Actually, there is one that I heard recently.Most people are right handed and have considerably less gripping strength and digital dexterity with their left hands - which is used for the reserve.I never noticed because I'm left handed and have nearly equal strength in both hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #20 January 19, 2002 Quote Many pillows are matched to the color of the rig, which in many cases are part of an overall "color scheme." Making your handles the same color as your jumpsuit (or even the trim on your jumpsuit) makes them very hard to find with your eyes. Well, my rig is mostly black with maroon trim, and I didn't put much thought into my handle colors.....cutaway is red, reserve is silver.. Jumpsuit is black/maroon.. Both handles(on both rigs) stand out very well, never had a problem finding them.. Quote The only reason I can see anyone needing a soft reserve handle (other than fashion) is if there's a serious possibility of snagging something in the handle. Such as freefly harness grips..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tlshealy 0 #21 January 19, 2002 I think it's kind of funny that people discuss this like it's right or wrong, thats why it's optional. All parachute gear choices have good points and bad points, AAD's, RSL's,Eliptical or square, if it's right for you then great. I'm sure that the advantages of a Reserve pad for freeflying or chunking exits far outweighs any disadvantage they may have. I like metal on the left, but thats all I've ever jumped. If I borrowed a rig with a pad I wouldn't think twice about jumping it, but I wouldn't buy a rig with one on, because I'm not on an RW team and I don't Freefly,(OK I'll admit it, I'm a sap sucking belly flyer). As for the argument about a metal handle for the cutaway side, my feeling is that if your reserve gets pulled on exit, your gonna know it pretty quick, if your cutaway got pulled on exit you'd just go on flying fat, dumb , and happy till pull time, then you'd think 'wow, what a soft opening'. I also think anyone without good upper body strength should be careful with a pad.( look what happened to Missy Nelson). Probably soft loops would be a good idea. Basically on this issue I'm pro-choice.Just my $.02Blue Skies TadD8142 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #22 January 20, 2002 Quote I'm sure that the advantages of a Reserve pad for freeflying or chunking exits far outweighs any disadvantage they may have. I like metal on the left, but thats all I've ever jumped. I'm only stating the reasons that I use a soft handle, and some reasons that I think others should.. I will not take harness grips on anybody with a metal or loop reserve handle, except on a linked exit - and then only up near the 3 rings.. I've seen two instances where reserves were deployed because somebody caught a finger in a metal D ring while taking, or releasing, harness grips..Quote I also think anyone without good upper body strength should be careful with a pad.( look what happened to Missy Nelson). IIRC, Missy's problem was NOT due to a pad on the reserve side, but due to the fact that, during a spinning mal on a small elliptical, the cutaway cables were trapped in the twisted risers and she had a hard cutaway.....actually, she was NOT able to cutaway.....and deployed the reserve(manually, not Cypres) when she could not chop the main.. It's been a while since that occured(few months?), but I think I remember the specifics correctly.. I have hard inserts in all my risers because of this possibility..Quote Probably soft loops would be a good idea. Basically on this issue I'm pro-choice. I do not feel that soft loops are a safe alternative for freeflyers that don't want a metal D ring due to snag hazards.....they are just as much on a soft loop.. The loops are great for those never taking harness grips, and, IMO, primarily belly flying.. They are a beautiful thing on tandem rigs..Use what you feel safe with - I do the same.....and that's what I expect of everybody..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NathanL100 0 #23 January 20, 2002 Who makes the reserve pillow that has what feels like a metal tube under the fabric??Blue Ones,NathanA# 39553 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #24 January 20, 2002 Quote Who makes the reserve pillow that has what feels like a metal tube under the fabric?? I believe that the reserve ripcord is part of the manufacturers' TSO on the reserve system, so you have to obtain the reserve handle/ripcord from the rig manufacturer.....but I may be wrong on that one.. Rob or Alan can answer that one better than I can.. Both of my reserve pads(Mirage and Rigging Innovations) have a rigid tube in it(I don't know if they're plastic or metal) that the swaged ball on the end of the cable fits into, and allows the cable to move in and out of the handle as it would through a D ring.. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NewGuy 0 #25 January 21, 2002 Quotewe learned that lesson with blast handles in the 70'sWhat are blast handles?Cheers,NewGuy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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Geoff 0 #2 January 17, 2002 Yes - a pad is less easy to grip (you can't put your thumb through it) and can occasionally fold under the harness.It's less likely to be accidentally snagged in the plane or in freefall, which is why many freefliers use pads (a reserve deployment at freefly speeds can be fatal).Just an observation: objectors to reserve pads never seem to explain why a pad is OK for the cutaway but not for the reserve.Just my 2 eurosgeoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #3 January 17, 2002 Quote why a pad is OK for the cutaway but not for the reserve Especially as that's probably the most difficult to pull in case of a spinning mal Support the cause - do a skydive(r) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #4 January 17, 2002 Since the subject came up....Recently at Eloy a very experienced four way jumper had a mal. Cutaway, then spent the next 750 feet looking for the reserve pad. Cypres save.mho? Metal reserve handle would have saved that jumper several hundred dollars in reserve repack and new cutter. Not to mention some stress to those on the ground who saw it.pull and flare,lisa-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Geoff 0 #5 January 17, 2002 So would you recommend a metal d-ring cutaway handle as well?Genuinely curious.Geoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #6 January 17, 2002 I posted the above so that those who have soft reserve handles and those who are considering them will be aware of what can happen. It's known as being aware of the risks you're taking.No, I wouldn't recommend a metal cutaway handle (not that those are available). But as I said in a previous thread, I am looking into getting one of the soft loop cutaway handles for my rig.pull and flare,lisa-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #7 January 17, 2002 One thing I noticed with my Jav Oddsy was that the soft reserve pad differs from the cut away handle - the cutaway is a thicker, 'squishy' pad whereas the reserve handle is thinner and more 'rigid'. I think the thick cutaway handle would be much easier to grip (easier to dig the fingers into) than the reserve handle - So my question to Javelin - why the different soft handles for cutaway and reserve? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #8 January 17, 2002 >So would you recommend a metal d-ring cutaway handle as well?No, but I _would_ recommend a cutaway handle with a pocket or loop on it.Strong tandems have an excellent cutaway handle - it has a pocket on the back of it, so when you grip it, your fingers naturally slide into the pocket. It gives you a tremendous amount of leverage, which I've needed more than once. I don't think two identical handles (metal _or_ fabric) is such a hot idea, since a lot of people have a sort of right/left dyslexia, and the tactile difference is an important cue.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hisgoofyness 0 #9 January 17, 2002 i never thought of it that way; in a panic state at least the difference in materials might make a difference if you grabbed the wrong onewho knows until they are in that situation..hisgoofynessits a bird, its a plane, no wait, its one goofy s.o.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveMonkey 0 #10 January 17, 2002 That's one of the reasons I practice my reserve drills a lot. Which is more than a lot of people I know. Support the cause - do a skydive(r) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lazerq3 0 #11 January 17, 2002 Question.......I jump with a guy that said hes was told to (and he does this) pull your cutaway pillow form the velcro and rotate it 360 deg to the left and then put it back in the velcro. This causes the pillow to want to stick out away from your body so it will be easier to grab. anyone else heard of this or does this?jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #12 January 17, 2002 Thats a bad idea.... hes putting a twist in the cutaway cables that could shorten them at the top (where they are needed most) and cause a premature cutaway with the handle still attatched at the bottom. It also could lead to a hard cutaway since the pull force now is not in a straight line any more. Its a slight possibilty, but i think it would be there none the less.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skycat 0 #13 January 18, 2002 QuoteThats a bad idea.... hes putting a twist in the cutaway cables that could shorten them at the top (where they are needed most) and cause a premature cutaway with the handle still attatched at the bottom. It also could lead to a hard cutaway since the pull force now is not in a straight line any more. Its a slight possibilty, but i think it would be there none the less.Actually this is exactly what my rigger did for me when I complained that my cut away handle was pressing into my stomach and I was worried it would be hard to grab. As for a twist causing a hard pull, I don't see how since the twist is inside the pillow where my hand is on top of holding. Also, I think that if your cutaway cables are so short to begin with that you have to worry about them coming undone from doing this, you might want to think about getting some longer ones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #14 January 18, 2002 But in his case, the twist is'nt inside the Pillow, its above the pillow. I just tried it on my J2 jave (which has a twist in the pillow) Thats shorting the cables by about half an inch by my measurements. While this should'nt EVER be an issue, I've seen some cable pop out of the riser houseing when the canopy gets fliped over thier head on handing. Thats bad......I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skycat 0 #15 January 18, 2002 Hmmm...on my mirage you can't see any twists, and it didn't adjust the cables more than slightly. Maybe it's just the different manufacturing styles of the pillows. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #16 January 18, 2002 Quote I'm looking for some input from skydivers that have jumped the sabre2 and their experience with it. There isn't much in the Gear section so maybe I have more luck here. I have used a D ring once, and pillow twice......never noticed a difference in perceived pull force required.. Honestly, I didn't even think about it until after I was safely on the ground.. I had no problem whatsoever pulling the pillow reserve, and that's what I have on both of my rigs.. I also had NO PROBLEM FINDING the pillow, as some people suggest..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #17 January 18, 2002 Quote Recently at Eloy a very experienced four way jumper had a mal. Cutaway, then spent the next 750 feet looking for the reserve pad. Cypres save.mho? Metal reserve handle would have saved that jumper several hundred dollars in reserve repack and new cutter. Not to mention some stress to those on the ground who saw it. I'd be willing to bet that the jumper had the pillow folded under his harness before exit, and just never checked it.....or his harness is so ill fitting(or just loose) that there was room for the pillow to twist under the harness during a spinning malfunction.. I've only had one nasty spinning malfunction with a pillow reserve, but neither pillow even came close to tucking under the harness..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #18 January 18, 2002 >I'd be willing to bet that the jumper had the pillow folded under his harness before exit, and just never checked it.....or his harness is so ill fitting(or just loose) that there was room for the pillow to twist under the harness during >a spinning malfunction.. There are some other possible issues.Some mals cause a severe distortion of the harness; I believe it was Rick Horn who couldn't even _find_ his reserve handle during a spinning mal on a small elliptical, because his harness was distorted so much. (Fortunately he had an RSL.) In such a case (handle under your ear, for example) it is probaby going to be easier to find and pull a metal handle than a cloth one. If the lift web itself is distorted, a fabric handle will distort but a metal one will not. It it actually starts to twist, the metal handle will pop out and dangle, while the cloth one will get caught up in the twists. (and yes, people have jumped with full twists in their lift webs.)Many pillows are matched to the color of the rig, which in many cases are part of an overall "color scheme." Making your handles the same color as your jumpsuit (or even the trim on your jumpsuit) makes them very hard to find with your eyes. We had a few red student jumpsuits that we put black patches on for just that reason - so the cutaway handle would stand out.The only reason I can see anyone needing a soft reserve handle (other than fashion) is if there's a serious possibility of snagging something in the handle. Making the reserve handle intentionally harder to pull is not something that should be done lightly - we learned that lesson with blast handles in the 70's.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites apoil 0 #19 January 19, 2002 QuoteJust an observation: objectors to reserve pads never seem to explain why a pad is OK for the cutaway but not for the reserve.Actually, there is one that I heard recently.Most people are right handed and have considerably less gripping strength and digital dexterity with their left hands - which is used for the reserve.I never noticed because I'm left handed and have nearly equal strength in both hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #20 January 19, 2002 Quote Many pillows are matched to the color of the rig, which in many cases are part of an overall "color scheme." Making your handles the same color as your jumpsuit (or even the trim on your jumpsuit) makes them very hard to find with your eyes. Well, my rig is mostly black with maroon trim, and I didn't put much thought into my handle colors.....cutaway is red, reserve is silver.. Jumpsuit is black/maroon.. Both handles(on both rigs) stand out very well, never had a problem finding them.. Quote The only reason I can see anyone needing a soft reserve handle (other than fashion) is if there's a serious possibility of snagging something in the handle. Such as freefly harness grips..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tlshealy 0 #21 January 19, 2002 I think it's kind of funny that people discuss this like it's right or wrong, thats why it's optional. All parachute gear choices have good points and bad points, AAD's, RSL's,Eliptical or square, if it's right for you then great. I'm sure that the advantages of a Reserve pad for freeflying or chunking exits far outweighs any disadvantage they may have. I like metal on the left, but thats all I've ever jumped. If I borrowed a rig with a pad I wouldn't think twice about jumping it, but I wouldn't buy a rig with one on, because I'm not on an RW team and I don't Freefly,(OK I'll admit it, I'm a sap sucking belly flyer). As for the argument about a metal handle for the cutaway side, my feeling is that if your reserve gets pulled on exit, your gonna know it pretty quick, if your cutaway got pulled on exit you'd just go on flying fat, dumb , and happy till pull time, then you'd think 'wow, what a soft opening'. I also think anyone without good upper body strength should be careful with a pad.( look what happened to Missy Nelson). Probably soft loops would be a good idea. Basically on this issue I'm pro-choice.Just my $.02Blue Skies TadD8142 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #22 January 20, 2002 Quote I'm sure that the advantages of a Reserve pad for freeflying or chunking exits far outweighs any disadvantage they may have. I like metal on the left, but thats all I've ever jumped. I'm only stating the reasons that I use a soft handle, and some reasons that I think others should.. I will not take harness grips on anybody with a metal or loop reserve handle, except on a linked exit - and then only up near the 3 rings.. I've seen two instances where reserves were deployed because somebody caught a finger in a metal D ring while taking, or releasing, harness grips..Quote I also think anyone without good upper body strength should be careful with a pad.( look what happened to Missy Nelson). IIRC, Missy's problem was NOT due to a pad on the reserve side, but due to the fact that, during a spinning mal on a small elliptical, the cutaway cables were trapped in the twisted risers and she had a hard cutaway.....actually, she was NOT able to cutaway.....and deployed the reserve(manually, not Cypres) when she could not chop the main.. It's been a while since that occured(few months?), but I think I remember the specifics correctly.. I have hard inserts in all my risers because of this possibility..Quote Probably soft loops would be a good idea. Basically on this issue I'm pro-choice. I do not feel that soft loops are a safe alternative for freeflyers that don't want a metal D ring due to snag hazards.....they are just as much on a soft loop.. The loops are great for those never taking harness grips, and, IMO, primarily belly flying.. They are a beautiful thing on tandem rigs..Use what you feel safe with - I do the same.....and that's what I expect of everybody..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NathanL100 0 #23 January 20, 2002 Who makes the reserve pillow that has what feels like a metal tube under the fabric??Blue Ones,NathanA# 39553 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #24 January 20, 2002 Quote Who makes the reserve pillow that has what feels like a metal tube under the fabric?? I believe that the reserve ripcord is part of the manufacturers' TSO on the reserve system, so you have to obtain the reserve handle/ripcord from the rig manufacturer.....but I may be wrong on that one.. Rob or Alan can answer that one better than I can.. Both of my reserve pads(Mirage and Rigging Innovations) have a rigid tube in it(I don't know if they're plastic or metal) that the swaged ball on the end of the cable fits into, and allows the cable to move in and out of the handle as it would through a D ring.. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NewGuy 0 #25 January 21, 2002 Quotewe learned that lesson with blast handles in the 70'sWhat are blast handles?Cheers,NewGuy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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skybytch 273 #4 January 17, 2002 Since the subject came up....Recently at Eloy a very experienced four way jumper had a mal. Cutaway, then spent the next 750 feet looking for the reserve pad. Cypres save.mho? Metal reserve handle would have saved that jumper several hundred dollars in reserve repack and new cutter. Not to mention some stress to those on the ground who saw it.pull and flare,lisa-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Geoff 0 #5 January 17, 2002 So would you recommend a metal d-ring cutaway handle as well?Genuinely curious.Geoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #6 January 17, 2002 I posted the above so that those who have soft reserve handles and those who are considering them will be aware of what can happen. It's known as being aware of the risks you're taking.No, I wouldn't recommend a metal cutaway handle (not that those are available). But as I said in a previous thread, I am looking into getting one of the soft loop cutaway handles for my rig.pull and flare,lisa-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #7 January 17, 2002 One thing I noticed with my Jav Oddsy was that the soft reserve pad differs from the cut away handle - the cutaway is a thicker, 'squishy' pad whereas the reserve handle is thinner and more 'rigid'. I think the thick cutaway handle would be much easier to grip (easier to dig the fingers into) than the reserve handle - So my question to Javelin - why the different soft handles for cutaway and reserve? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #8 January 17, 2002 >So would you recommend a metal d-ring cutaway handle as well?No, but I _would_ recommend a cutaway handle with a pocket or loop on it.Strong tandems have an excellent cutaway handle - it has a pocket on the back of it, so when you grip it, your fingers naturally slide into the pocket. It gives you a tremendous amount of leverage, which I've needed more than once. I don't think two identical handles (metal _or_ fabric) is such a hot idea, since a lot of people have a sort of right/left dyslexia, and the tactile difference is an important cue.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hisgoofyness 0 #9 January 17, 2002 i never thought of it that way; in a panic state at least the difference in materials might make a difference if you grabbed the wrong onewho knows until they are in that situation..hisgoofynessits a bird, its a plane, no wait, its one goofy s.o.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #10 January 17, 2002 That's one of the reasons I practice my reserve drills a lot. Which is more than a lot of people I know. Support the cause - do a skydive(r) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lazerq3 0 #11 January 17, 2002 Question.......I jump with a guy that said hes was told to (and he does this) pull your cutaway pillow form the velcro and rotate it 360 deg to the left and then put it back in the velcro. This causes the pillow to want to stick out away from your body so it will be easier to grab. anyone else heard of this or does this?jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #12 January 17, 2002 Thats a bad idea.... hes putting a twist in the cutaway cables that could shorten them at the top (where they are needed most) and cause a premature cutaway with the handle still attatched at the bottom. It also could lead to a hard cutaway since the pull force now is not in a straight line any more. Its a slight possibilty, but i think it would be there none the less.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skycat 0 #13 January 18, 2002 QuoteThats a bad idea.... hes putting a twist in the cutaway cables that could shorten them at the top (where they are needed most) and cause a premature cutaway with the handle still attatched at the bottom. It also could lead to a hard cutaway since the pull force now is not in a straight line any more. Its a slight possibilty, but i think it would be there none the less.Actually this is exactly what my rigger did for me when I complained that my cut away handle was pressing into my stomach and I was worried it would be hard to grab. As for a twist causing a hard pull, I don't see how since the twist is inside the pillow where my hand is on top of holding. Also, I think that if your cutaway cables are so short to begin with that you have to worry about them coming undone from doing this, you might want to think about getting some longer ones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #14 January 18, 2002 But in his case, the twist is'nt inside the Pillow, its above the pillow. I just tried it on my J2 jave (which has a twist in the pillow) Thats shorting the cables by about half an inch by my measurements. While this should'nt EVER be an issue, I've seen some cable pop out of the riser houseing when the canopy gets fliped over thier head on handing. Thats bad......I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skycat 0 #15 January 18, 2002 Hmmm...on my mirage you can't see any twists, and it didn't adjust the cables more than slightly. Maybe it's just the different manufacturing styles of the pillows. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #16 January 18, 2002 Quote I'm looking for some input from skydivers that have jumped the sabre2 and their experience with it. There isn't much in the Gear section so maybe I have more luck here. I have used a D ring once, and pillow twice......never noticed a difference in perceived pull force required.. Honestly, I didn't even think about it until after I was safely on the ground.. I had no problem whatsoever pulling the pillow reserve, and that's what I have on both of my rigs.. I also had NO PROBLEM FINDING the pillow, as some people suggest..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #17 January 18, 2002 Quote Recently at Eloy a very experienced four way jumper had a mal. Cutaway, then spent the next 750 feet looking for the reserve pad. Cypres save.mho? Metal reserve handle would have saved that jumper several hundred dollars in reserve repack and new cutter. Not to mention some stress to those on the ground who saw it. I'd be willing to bet that the jumper had the pillow folded under his harness before exit, and just never checked it.....or his harness is so ill fitting(or just loose) that there was room for the pillow to twist under the harness during a spinning malfunction.. I've only had one nasty spinning malfunction with a pillow reserve, but neither pillow even came close to tucking under the harness..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #18 January 18, 2002 >I'd be willing to bet that the jumper had the pillow folded under his harness before exit, and just never checked it.....or his harness is so ill fitting(or just loose) that there was room for the pillow to twist under the harness during >a spinning malfunction.. There are some other possible issues.Some mals cause a severe distortion of the harness; I believe it was Rick Horn who couldn't even _find_ his reserve handle during a spinning mal on a small elliptical, because his harness was distorted so much. (Fortunately he had an RSL.) In such a case (handle under your ear, for example) it is probaby going to be easier to find and pull a metal handle than a cloth one. If the lift web itself is distorted, a fabric handle will distort but a metal one will not. It it actually starts to twist, the metal handle will pop out and dangle, while the cloth one will get caught up in the twists. (and yes, people have jumped with full twists in their lift webs.)Many pillows are matched to the color of the rig, which in many cases are part of an overall "color scheme." Making your handles the same color as your jumpsuit (or even the trim on your jumpsuit) makes them very hard to find with your eyes. We had a few red student jumpsuits that we put black patches on for just that reason - so the cutaway handle would stand out.The only reason I can see anyone needing a soft reserve handle (other than fashion) is if there's a serious possibility of snagging something in the handle. Making the reserve handle intentionally harder to pull is not something that should be done lightly - we learned that lesson with blast handles in the 70's.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites apoil 0 #19 January 19, 2002 QuoteJust an observation: objectors to reserve pads never seem to explain why a pad is OK for the cutaway but not for the reserve.Actually, there is one that I heard recently.Most people are right handed and have considerably less gripping strength and digital dexterity with their left hands - which is used for the reserve.I never noticed because I'm left handed and have nearly equal strength in both hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #20 January 19, 2002 Quote Many pillows are matched to the color of the rig, which in many cases are part of an overall "color scheme." Making your handles the same color as your jumpsuit (or even the trim on your jumpsuit) makes them very hard to find with your eyes. Well, my rig is mostly black with maroon trim, and I didn't put much thought into my handle colors.....cutaway is red, reserve is silver.. Jumpsuit is black/maroon.. Both handles(on both rigs) stand out very well, never had a problem finding them.. Quote The only reason I can see anyone needing a soft reserve handle (other than fashion) is if there's a serious possibility of snagging something in the handle. Such as freefly harness grips..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tlshealy 0 #21 January 19, 2002 I think it's kind of funny that people discuss this like it's right or wrong, thats why it's optional. All parachute gear choices have good points and bad points, AAD's, RSL's,Eliptical or square, if it's right for you then great. I'm sure that the advantages of a Reserve pad for freeflying or chunking exits far outweighs any disadvantage they may have. I like metal on the left, but thats all I've ever jumped. If I borrowed a rig with a pad I wouldn't think twice about jumping it, but I wouldn't buy a rig with one on, because I'm not on an RW team and I don't Freefly,(OK I'll admit it, I'm a sap sucking belly flyer). As for the argument about a metal handle for the cutaway side, my feeling is that if your reserve gets pulled on exit, your gonna know it pretty quick, if your cutaway got pulled on exit you'd just go on flying fat, dumb , and happy till pull time, then you'd think 'wow, what a soft opening'. I also think anyone without good upper body strength should be careful with a pad.( look what happened to Missy Nelson). Probably soft loops would be a good idea. Basically on this issue I'm pro-choice.Just my $.02Blue Skies TadD8142 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #22 January 20, 2002 Quote I'm sure that the advantages of a Reserve pad for freeflying or chunking exits far outweighs any disadvantage they may have. I like metal on the left, but thats all I've ever jumped. I'm only stating the reasons that I use a soft handle, and some reasons that I think others should.. I will not take harness grips on anybody with a metal or loop reserve handle, except on a linked exit - and then only up near the 3 rings.. I've seen two instances where reserves were deployed because somebody caught a finger in a metal D ring while taking, or releasing, harness grips..Quote I also think anyone without good upper body strength should be careful with a pad.( look what happened to Missy Nelson). IIRC, Missy's problem was NOT due to a pad on the reserve side, but due to the fact that, during a spinning mal on a small elliptical, the cutaway cables were trapped in the twisted risers and she had a hard cutaway.....actually, she was NOT able to cutaway.....and deployed the reserve(manually, not Cypres) when she could not chop the main.. It's been a while since that occured(few months?), but I think I remember the specifics correctly.. I have hard inserts in all my risers because of this possibility..Quote Probably soft loops would be a good idea. Basically on this issue I'm pro-choice. I do not feel that soft loops are a safe alternative for freeflyers that don't want a metal D ring due to snag hazards.....they are just as much on a soft loop.. The loops are great for those never taking harness grips, and, IMO, primarily belly flying.. They are a beautiful thing on tandem rigs..Use what you feel safe with - I do the same.....and that's what I expect of everybody..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NathanL100 0 #23 January 20, 2002 Who makes the reserve pillow that has what feels like a metal tube under the fabric??Blue Ones,NathanA# 39553 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #24 January 20, 2002 Quote Who makes the reserve pillow that has what feels like a metal tube under the fabric?? I believe that the reserve ripcord is part of the manufacturers' TSO on the reserve system, so you have to obtain the reserve handle/ripcord from the rig manufacturer.....but I may be wrong on that one.. Rob or Alan can answer that one better than I can.. Both of my reserve pads(Mirage and Rigging Innovations) have a rigid tube in it(I don't know if they're plastic or metal) that the swaged ball on the end of the cable fits into, and allows the cable to move in and out of the handle as it would through a D ring.. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NewGuy 0 #25 January 21, 2002 Quotewe learned that lesson with blast handles in the 70'sWhat are blast handles?Cheers,NewGuy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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lazerq3 0 #11 January 17, 2002 Question.......I jump with a guy that said hes was told to (and he does this) pull your cutaway pillow form the velcro and rotate it 360 deg to the left and then put it back in the velcro. This causes the pillow to want to stick out away from your body so it will be easier to grab. anyone else heard of this or does this?jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #12 January 17, 2002 Thats a bad idea.... hes putting a twist in the cutaway cables that could shorten them at the top (where they are needed most) and cause a premature cutaway with the handle still attatched at the bottom. It also could lead to a hard cutaway since the pull force now is not in a straight line any more. Its a slight possibilty, but i think it would be there none the less.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #13 January 18, 2002 QuoteThats a bad idea.... hes putting a twist in the cutaway cables that could shorten them at the top (where they are needed most) and cause a premature cutaway with the handle still attatched at the bottom. It also could lead to a hard cutaway since the pull force now is not in a straight line any more. Its a slight possibilty, but i think it would be there none the less.Actually this is exactly what my rigger did for me when I complained that my cut away handle was pressing into my stomach and I was worried it would be hard to grab. As for a twist causing a hard pull, I don't see how since the twist is inside the pillow where my hand is on top of holding. Also, I think that if your cutaway cables are so short to begin with that you have to worry about them coming undone from doing this, you might want to think about getting some longer ones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #14 January 18, 2002 But in his case, the twist is'nt inside the Pillow, its above the pillow. I just tried it on my J2 jave (which has a twist in the pillow) Thats shorting the cables by about half an inch by my measurements. While this should'nt EVER be an issue, I've seen some cable pop out of the riser houseing when the canopy gets fliped over thier head on handing. Thats bad......I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #15 January 18, 2002 Hmmm...on my mirage you can't see any twists, and it didn't adjust the cables more than slightly. Maybe it's just the different manufacturing styles of the pillows. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #16 January 18, 2002 Quote I'm looking for some input from skydivers that have jumped the sabre2 and their experience with it. There isn't much in the Gear section so maybe I have more luck here. I have used a D ring once, and pillow twice......never noticed a difference in perceived pull force required.. Honestly, I didn't even think about it until after I was safely on the ground.. I had no problem whatsoever pulling the pillow reserve, and that's what I have on both of my rigs.. I also had NO PROBLEM FINDING the pillow, as some people suggest..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #17 January 18, 2002 Quote Recently at Eloy a very experienced four way jumper had a mal. Cutaway, then spent the next 750 feet looking for the reserve pad. Cypres save.mho? Metal reserve handle would have saved that jumper several hundred dollars in reserve repack and new cutter. Not to mention some stress to those on the ground who saw it. I'd be willing to bet that the jumper had the pillow folded under his harness before exit, and just never checked it.....or his harness is so ill fitting(or just loose) that there was room for the pillow to twist under the harness during a spinning malfunction.. I've only had one nasty spinning malfunction with a pillow reserve, but neither pillow even came close to tucking under the harness..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #18 January 18, 2002 >I'd be willing to bet that the jumper had the pillow folded under his harness before exit, and just never checked it.....or his harness is so ill fitting(or just loose) that there was room for the pillow to twist under the harness during >a spinning malfunction.. There are some other possible issues.Some mals cause a severe distortion of the harness; I believe it was Rick Horn who couldn't even _find_ his reserve handle during a spinning mal on a small elliptical, because his harness was distorted so much. (Fortunately he had an RSL.) In such a case (handle under your ear, for example) it is probaby going to be easier to find and pull a metal handle than a cloth one. If the lift web itself is distorted, a fabric handle will distort but a metal one will not. It it actually starts to twist, the metal handle will pop out and dangle, while the cloth one will get caught up in the twists. (and yes, people have jumped with full twists in their lift webs.)Many pillows are matched to the color of the rig, which in many cases are part of an overall "color scheme." Making your handles the same color as your jumpsuit (or even the trim on your jumpsuit) makes them very hard to find with your eyes. We had a few red student jumpsuits that we put black patches on for just that reason - so the cutaway handle would stand out.The only reason I can see anyone needing a soft reserve handle (other than fashion) is if there's a serious possibility of snagging something in the handle. Making the reserve handle intentionally harder to pull is not something that should be done lightly - we learned that lesson with blast handles in the 70's.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #19 January 19, 2002 QuoteJust an observation: objectors to reserve pads never seem to explain why a pad is OK for the cutaway but not for the reserve.Actually, there is one that I heard recently.Most people are right handed and have considerably less gripping strength and digital dexterity with their left hands - which is used for the reserve.I never noticed because I'm left handed and have nearly equal strength in both hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #20 January 19, 2002 Quote Many pillows are matched to the color of the rig, which in many cases are part of an overall "color scheme." Making your handles the same color as your jumpsuit (or even the trim on your jumpsuit) makes them very hard to find with your eyes. Well, my rig is mostly black with maroon trim, and I didn't put much thought into my handle colors.....cutaway is red, reserve is silver.. Jumpsuit is black/maroon.. Both handles(on both rigs) stand out very well, never had a problem finding them.. Quote The only reason I can see anyone needing a soft reserve handle (other than fashion) is if there's a serious possibility of snagging something in the handle. Such as freefly harness grips..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tlshealy 0 #21 January 19, 2002 I think it's kind of funny that people discuss this like it's right or wrong, thats why it's optional. All parachute gear choices have good points and bad points, AAD's, RSL's,Eliptical or square, if it's right for you then great. I'm sure that the advantages of a Reserve pad for freeflying or chunking exits far outweighs any disadvantage they may have. I like metal on the left, but thats all I've ever jumped. If I borrowed a rig with a pad I wouldn't think twice about jumping it, but I wouldn't buy a rig with one on, because I'm not on an RW team and I don't Freefly,(OK I'll admit it, I'm a sap sucking belly flyer). As for the argument about a metal handle for the cutaway side, my feeling is that if your reserve gets pulled on exit, your gonna know it pretty quick, if your cutaway got pulled on exit you'd just go on flying fat, dumb , and happy till pull time, then you'd think 'wow, what a soft opening'. I also think anyone without good upper body strength should be careful with a pad.( look what happened to Missy Nelson). Probably soft loops would be a good idea. Basically on this issue I'm pro-choice.Just my $.02Blue Skies TadD8142 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #22 January 20, 2002 Quote I'm sure that the advantages of a Reserve pad for freeflying or chunking exits far outweighs any disadvantage they may have. I like metal on the left, but thats all I've ever jumped. I'm only stating the reasons that I use a soft handle, and some reasons that I think others should.. I will not take harness grips on anybody with a metal or loop reserve handle, except on a linked exit - and then only up near the 3 rings.. I've seen two instances where reserves were deployed because somebody caught a finger in a metal D ring while taking, or releasing, harness grips..Quote I also think anyone without good upper body strength should be careful with a pad.( look what happened to Missy Nelson). IIRC, Missy's problem was NOT due to a pad on the reserve side, but due to the fact that, during a spinning mal on a small elliptical, the cutaway cables were trapped in the twisted risers and she had a hard cutaway.....actually, she was NOT able to cutaway.....and deployed the reserve(manually, not Cypres) when she could not chop the main.. It's been a while since that occured(few months?), but I think I remember the specifics correctly.. I have hard inserts in all my risers because of this possibility..Quote Probably soft loops would be a good idea. Basically on this issue I'm pro-choice. I do not feel that soft loops are a safe alternative for freeflyers that don't want a metal D ring due to snag hazards.....they are just as much on a soft loop.. The loops are great for those never taking harness grips, and, IMO, primarily belly flying.. They are a beautiful thing on tandem rigs..Use what you feel safe with - I do the same.....and that's what I expect of everybody..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NathanL100 0 #23 January 20, 2002 Who makes the reserve pillow that has what feels like a metal tube under the fabric??Blue Ones,NathanA# 39553 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #24 January 20, 2002 Quote Who makes the reserve pillow that has what feels like a metal tube under the fabric?? I believe that the reserve ripcord is part of the manufacturers' TSO on the reserve system, so you have to obtain the reserve handle/ripcord from the rig manufacturer.....but I may be wrong on that one.. Rob or Alan can answer that one better than I can.. Both of my reserve pads(Mirage and Rigging Innovations) have a rigid tube in it(I don't know if they're plastic or metal) that the swaged ball on the end of the cable fits into, and allows the cable to move in and out of the handle as it would through a D ring.. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy 0 #25 January 21, 2002 Quotewe learned that lesson with blast handles in the 70'sWhat are blast handles?Cheers,NewGuy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
