That really freaked me out!

[justinbuss 0]

OK, I was reading the thread about the Vector 3 Micron in the Freefly forum and saw this post. The video got me spooked, so I sent an e-mail to JumpShack and asked what the circumstances were surrounding that rig. I got this reply from John Sherman:

Quote

The pack job was from the manufacturer of the rig and was in fact a good pack job. We did it on a lark when the rig came in to us for a repack. If you really want to know about it try it yourself. The situation exists on several of the rigs currently manufactured with Tuck Tabs.

I don't have a rig handy that I can try this on (don't yet own my own), so I was hoping someone on here could tell me what difference the Tuck Tabs make, and how they prevent the reserve freebag from leaving the container (as apparently happens in this case).
If I'm missing the plot feel free to help me right.
I find sometimes it's easy to be myself.
Sometimes I find it's better to be somebody else. - DMB

[Remster 30]

Here we go again......
I'm too lazy to search, but we had a long discussion about this video a while ago.
The concensus was (from my point of view anyways):
- Jumpshack, if it posts such material, should document it.
- The angle the briddle was pulling was completely unatural, and therefore does not test any real life situation.
Remster
Muff 914

[riggerrob 643]

Four factors are at play here: first, the rig has multiple stiffeners at the top edge of the reserve container.
Secondly, tuck tab design is still a dark art. Even someone like Sandy Reid (Talon, Voodoo, etc.) does not always get it right on the first try. Tuck tabs are supposed to hold tight until some magical moment, when their resistance magically turns to zero.
Thirdly, field riggers have an annoying habit of ignoring packing manuals and distributing bulk in ways that never crossed the designer's mind in his worst drunken nightmare.
Fourthly, Jump Shack is taking a cheap shot at a competitor by pulling the bridle from an unrealistic angle.

[justinbuss 0]

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Jump Shack is taking a cheap shot at a competitor by pulling the bridle from an unrealistic angle

Sorry Rob, but I have to disagree on that point. I don't want to open a discussion that has been thrashed to death, but if you look at how the video starts, then you see that the rig is first layed flat on the ground and the bridal pulled. The rig lifts off the floor! If there wasn't anything wrong with the rig, then the bridal should have extracted the freebag before the rig lifted. Agreed?
Also, you're not always going to be fortunate enough to be stable when deploying your reserve. the bridal and pilot chute could theoretically come out at ANY angle. If you're falling feet-first and can't get belly-to-earth for whatever reason, then the bridal could be pulling at the freebag at exactly the same angle as in that video. Right?
I find sometimes it's easy to be myself.
Sometimes I find it's better to be somebody else. - DMB

[rapper4mpi 0]

Again I spoke to my rigger about this and he said that there are a number of rigs on the market that that can happen too if packed improperly. Basically keep the bulk of the reserve away from the top of the container and this will not happen. Furthermore, have you ever held onto a pilot chute out of a car window going 60 mph? Try it, it hurts! So with the snatch force going at least that fast, I think it would pull out in time.
-Rap

[rapper4mpi 0]

After watching the video again, I would be pretty pissed if someone handled my gear that way. Did you see the way they threw it to the ground on the gym floor? Also, what about how the camera just happened to be there as they opened it? Something seems a bit fishy.
-Rap

[justinbuss 0]

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Did you see the way they threw it to the ground on the gym floor?

What you see there is the rig hits the floor during the spin and then the freebag comes out it's container. They didn't throw it on the floor. If it had come out any other time during the spin it would have hit the floor in the same way.

Quote

what about how the camera just happened to be there as they opened it?

Actually, according to John Sherman of JumpShack they were aware of the problem on that make of rig so they filmed it when it came in for a repack so that they could have it on tape ...that's all. Nothing too suspicious. The suspicious thing is that they don't have anything on the JumpShack website saying what the video is about or what they are trying to prove.
I find sometimes it's easy to be myself.
Sometimes I find it's better to be somebody else. - DMB

[rapper4mpi 0]

I understand what I see, and in fact, still would be pissed if they did that to my rig. Although this is a very important issue that needs to be addressed, but like you said, it is offered up with no explanation, or even how to prevent it from happening. Anway, it still won't get me to jump a Racer, had my first mal on one.
-Rap

[justinbuss 0]

You're right, though. If that was my rig I'd blow a friggin gasket.
I find sometimes it's easy to be myself.
Sometimes I find it's better to be somebody else. - DMB

[PhreeZone 20]

Here we go again....
1) Snatch force of a Pilot Chute is like 150 pounds spread over a fraction of a second. The gentle application of pressure does'nt mean anything.
2) There is no list of stated components. The container may be sized for a 150 and the reserve is a 288. Closing it would pack it as hard as a brick.
3) Reserves are designed to deploy unstable. If you are in a stand, Arch and belly to earth you go.
4) The gear is'nt treated any worse then having your rig hit the ground after a bad landing.
Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush

[TALONSKY 0]

That is a interesting film. The one thing I notice is they set the rig on the ground and pull straight up on the reserve bridle, but the only weight it is lifting is the rig ( about 20 - 25 pounds) not the added weight of a jumper. I could not imagine the reserve not deploying with the drag from the pilot chute against the weight of the jumper. Anyway that is my .02 cents worth
Kirk

[rapper4mpi 0]

I agree with point 1,2, and 3. But no company in which you trust your gear with has a right to swing it around over their heads and let it go skidding across a gym floor. I don't care if it didn't hurt it, it is the priniciple. Also if I drag my gear across the ground and get it dirty, I'll still be pissed, but at least I did it.
-Rap

[PhreeZone 20]

I'm quite sure they asked to use the rig before they did the tests.... I've seen way more damageing things happen by putting gear in a hot trunk for days on end then what droping it will do. the Damage no different then your rigger accidently knocking your rig off his bench.....
Personally... I trust most manufactors then most riggers to handle my gear.
Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush

[rapper4mpi 0]

Here is my initial email to Jumpshack and their response below...
"First I want to say that my first 175 jumps were on a Racer. This was an
earlier rig and after a sloppy pack job on my part I had a total mal. Bridle
between the top of the bag and the underside of the pin was flapping in the
breeze. So I stopped jumping one. But this letter is in response to that
Spin Test that is posted on the site. I would like more information about
that. What type of rig, size of reserve and main. Why did you happen to be
filming when you opened this rig. And finally, do you treat all your rigs
that way? I.E. throwing them on the floor?
I applaud Jumpshack for bringing this issue to the surface, but we need more
detail, as it stands, it seems that you are using this to sell your product
without offering all the facts, which is distrustful and actually turns
customers away. Please respond, I look forward to hearing from you."
"The video speaks for itself. What we are suggesting is do the test yourself.
We intentionally don't identify the rig 'cause it can happen on several
different similar rigs. I will tell you that it is done with the main full
and closed and this main had a 190 Sq. Ft. canopy in it and that the total
weight of the rig was 22 pounds. The pack job was done by the manufacturer
of the rig and we, upon suspicion that it would perform this way got out the
camera. We had the rig in for a repack.
Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. Test for
yourself."
John

[skycat 0]

After seeing all the talk about racers I went to the web page to see the video. Well while I was there I saw their findings on risers and the trapped cutaway cables. Article It's interesting how their findings differ with several other manufacturers. What do some of the riggers out there think of this?
Kelli

[rapper4mpi 0]

More fuel to the fire....
"The problem can be analogized to bending over and standing on your neck tie
and then trying to stand up. The Tuck Tabs are the culprit. It is a
deficiency in the design. We learned about it during our 2 year quest to
provide a closure/retention system to replace the Velcro on our riser
covers. Not a simple problem. We now have and are producing a good solution
which has received wide acceptance. We did this without increasing the bag
extraction force requirement with the main full and closed.
One of the other manufacturers, who shall remain nameless, after a recall
and redesign and re-release of the tuck tabs on his rig, confided in me that
Tuck Tabs didn't work. I then asked him why he released them and he replied
"because the market wanted them". Does that give you an eerie feeling, it
does me.
Trust but verify!!"

[rapper4mpi 0]

I responded back to John:
"John, I again thank you for your response. I think what is happening is that
people don't like hearing that their existing gear may have something wrong
with it. My rigger said that, yes this is a problem on a few types of rigs
out there. He also said that if you have a rigger that knows what their
doing, they can avoid this problem I.E., keeping bulk away from the top of
the container. Do you agree with this?"
His repsonse was simply "NO"
What do you all think of this?
-Rap

[MarkM 0]

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What do you all think of this?

I think if they're really concerned about it, why don't they at least post the rigs that have this "problem" so better testing/information can be distributed?

[skybytch 273]

I don't think it's right to post private email correspondence on a public forum if you didn't let John know that you were planning to do so...
pull and flare,
lisa
--
What would Scooby Doo?

[rapper4mpi 0]

You are correct.
-Rap