totalwreck 0 #1 March 6, 2002 Hi folks --Forgive the newbie question (and one that has undoubtedly been asked/answered many times), but here goes:I'm in the market for my first rig and I've decided to buy new from Para-Service: Genera container, Hornet main, Tempo reserve. I am 175 lbs exit weight with gear and need to decide what size main and reserve to purchase. I only have 25 total jumps, all under Mantas and Mavarones (i.e., big F-111 canopies). My inclination is to go with a 190 for the Hornet and maybe even a 210 for the reserve to err on the side of caution and be as safe as possible (my wife would like that). But I also don't want to sink hundereds into a canopy I may outgrow soon. Any thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated.(I, of course, will discuss this with jumpers and staff at my home DZ, but I figured I would cast the net as wide as possible in order to hopefully hear all sides. Thanks! I love this sport and this site!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #2 March 6, 2002 I've gone for a hornet 170 for my first rig and i weigh 190 out the door. I've put a load of jumps on a Fury 220, and that's been too slow for my liking, and I've also tried a Sabre 210, also way to slow. You shouldn't put a knife in the toaster - but you're an adult now !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #3 March 6, 2002 Call Lisa at Squareone or PM Skybytch, she will probably be happy to help you choose a suitable setup. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #4 March 6, 2002 Depends... how often will you be jumping? Every weekend or a few times per month? Where do you jump - are you at sea level or at a higher ground altitude? How much risk are you willing to take with your body? How have your landings been on the canopies you've been jumping? If you jump at sea level, land well on the canopies you've been jumping and will be staying pretty current I'd recommend going no bigger than 190 and no smaller than 170 on your main and reserve. I'd suggest buying used instead of new regardless of sizing - that way if you do get bored with it soon you won't "lose" nearly as much money when you sell it to buy something smaller. If you can find one with a harness that fits your body, used is also a good idea for a first container since you will likely have at least a few not-so-pretty landings (think first scratch on that new car). Any chance you can put some jumps on several canopies sized in between what you're jumping now and what you are looking at buying? Going from a big student canopy to a 190 in one jump will be interesting to say the least...pull and flare,lisa---Mondays suck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #5 March 6, 2002 >My inclination is to go with a 190 for the Hornet and maybe even a 210 for the reserve to err on the side of >caution and be as safe as possible (my wife would like that). That sounds good. Those canopy sizes sound like they'd be fine _provided_ you make a few jumps on a transition canopy i.e. borrow a 230/210 sq ft main for a few jumps to get a feel for the higher loading before going to the 190.Another idea might be to get a used main. Size the container for a 170 main/210 reserve, buy a used Hornet 190 (or Sabre 190 or whatever) put a bunch of jumps on it, then get a smaller main when you're ready for it. That way the container will still be useful. (I don't think the Genera gives you such an option, though - it only comes in four sizes, main always larger than reserve.)Or get a used complete rig. For example, here's one on the Square One website:Reflex PD193 reserve Tri-190 main cypres $2600This starts you off cheaper, and you'll always be able to sell it when you decide what you want after 100 jumps.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #6 March 6, 2002 A Triathlon at 1.0 - 1.2 is a great first canopy. Very forgiving, flies very slow if needed, great in wind and turbulence. PD reserve in the 170 range would probably be good also.Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #7 March 6, 2002 I think the advice, "Talk to Lisa." Might be your best bet to not end up with your nickname proving true in real life Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #8 March 6, 2002 If you have the option, go for a demo program. The Squares offer free or discounted rentals if you put a deposit down on new gear (depending on the amount you put down). That gives you the opportunity to downsize, get more experience, and try out different equipment before purchasing.cielos azules y cerveza fría-Kevin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rendezvous 0 #9 March 6, 2002 I weigh 170 at exit and fly a 175 triathalon. Haven't had any issues with it. It's not fast and it's not slow to the point that you feel you aren't coming down that day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #10 March 6, 2002 Triathlon is a GREAT. FORGIVING, SAFE!! First canopy..If my son were to start jumping today I would put him on a Triathlon..Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #11 March 7, 2002 Rhino it's comments like yours that made me buy a Triathalon for my first canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #12 March 7, 2002 It is the truth isn't it..What do you think about your Triathlon??Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #13 March 7, 2002 Dunno, owned the damn thing for over a year and haven't jumped it yet I sent it off Tuesday for a reline and should be jumping it sometime in April when I get my rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dumpster 0 #14 March 7, 2002 Call me nutz- Wouldn't be the first time- I went directly from the 280' Mantas (read- Goodyear Blimps) to a 150 spectre after 20 jumps in the static line course- After that I made a 3-4 jumps under bigger (170-230') canopies - but I wound up buying the Spectre rig - Thought I might try going up to a 170, but decided to go ahead and continue jumping the 150-- It's a little fast and I enjoy it- Now here's the punch line - I go out the door at 200 pounds - with 32 jumps to date- Think I'm loaded a little?Life begins at 14,000' - Shut up and jump! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveMonkey 0 #15 March 7, 2002 You're crazy. I'd never consider a jump like that to that loading. You shouldn't put a knife in the toaster - but you're an adult now !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #16 March 7, 2002 Quotedecided to go ahead and continue jumping the 150-- It's a little fast and I enjoy it- Now here's the punch line - I go out the door at 200 pounds - with 32 jumps to date- Think I'm loaded a little?Dude, I mean no disrespect when I say this, but I think you're about to become a statistic. You're doing at 30 jumps what I'm doing at 300. I hope your injuries are mild, my friend._AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #17 March 7, 2002 QuoteThink I'm loaded a little?Are you bragging about it? Hope you're lucky and everything always goes 100% right cuz you're asking for trouble, imho...pull and flare,lisa---Mondays suck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Engovatov 0 #18 March 7, 2002 >Think I'm loaded a little?I think you are fine as long as you are not on a busy DZ and pay attention to what are you doing. 1.33 is not that bad at all - actual difference in speed, turn rate, altitude loss, if anybody actually measures it, in hard numbers, between 150 and, say, 190 is not that big, MUCH less then typical difference between reaction rate and bone strength for different individuals, so making general recommendations is rather pointless in my opinion.BUT! If three people who saw you fly and land told you "Dude, you better be careful out there" and/or you can not land it where you want (+/- 20m) every time, you better pack this main and find yourself something bigger for a while. Not that it necessarily will make you any safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #19 March 7, 2002 QuoteHope you're lucky and everything always goes 100% right cuz you're asking for trouble, imho...Holy crap, I agree with Lisa. I owe beer Seriously though. You choose your main based on how hard you want to wipe out, not on how well you land on the average landing.I'm hoping my eventual injuries under my 1.1 loaded Triathalon will be bruises and sprains instead of broken bones and compound fractures, it's why I chose a docile canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Albatross 0 #20 March 7, 2002 O.K. someone has to make this little speach and since i I think that Lisa's voice is tired I will do it. I don't think that a jumper with 32 jumps is ready to load a conopy at like 1.5:1 even on a tame "conventional" conopy like aTriathalon or Spectre. I am sure that under good conditions that you can land and that almost always you will be fine. However, you are not flying the canopy with anywhere near the optimal results and if you do accidently make that critical move (low turn, avoidance, or tight landing) you will see the problems multipy possibly to your pain or worse. I have 300+ jumps on a Spectre 170 loaded at 1.1:1 and just took aone of the best canopy classes in the country (Jim Slaton). He made the point that if you are loading the conopy like 1.5 and you are flying slowly it will be doscile but when you pull on a riser or burry a toggle it will come out and bite you. Do your health insurance a favor and UP size to near 1:1 and slowly milk all you can form that then move back down in size. All we want is to see you make that 100th jump with outa ton of mettle in you body.God bless us and God Bless AmericaAlbatross Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #21 March 7, 2002 You need to be between 1.0 and 1.2 for 200-250 jumps.. Depending on how well you fly a canopy.. You don't need to be learning under something you feel is too fast.Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dumpster 0 #22 March 7, 2002 I sincerely appreciate all the feedback! i sure didn't expect so much input! I do have ALOT of respect for the canopy and it's loading, and I am fortunate I'm at a small DZ- Rarely do we have more than a few canopies in the air- I am also very careful in regards to low turns, etc- My accuracy is pretty good, usually within 10-20m, and I'm building a stronger relationship with my canopy each time I jump it. I hope I'm not coming across as cocky-Blue ones!-Life begins at 14,000' - Shut up and jump! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kris 0 #23 March 7, 2002 Well, I'm just another lousy JM/I from a small Cessna DZ but light traffic or not, good accuracy or not, the first time that some one cuts you off under canopy and you bury a toggle to avoid them your canopy is probably going to hit the ground before you do.Sorry, don't mean to sound harsh but that wing-loading is a bit too high for 95% of the jumpers out there to "build a relationship" with.My recommendation, find an experienced jumper with a Sabre 170 looking to go to a 150 and trade. 1.33:1 (200# out the door divided by Sabre 150...) is entirely too high of a wing-loading to start with and something I would not let any of my students start with.My opinion is that with a wing-loading that high you will be too busy trying to keep things under control while you also have to think 3 minutes ahead for you to be able to learn your canopy.Again, not trying to be harsh, I just want to see you enjoying the sport several years from now. KrisIAD-JM/IOooohh! Can I have CN#3?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #24 March 7, 2002 Kris... did'nt you get the memo? The CN#'s were retired and the entire program scraped. Everyone go get a VX 65 for all I care anymore.Wingloading 1:1 jumps grad to 1001.2-1.3 100 to what ever1.4 and up.... you better be smart enough to know ALL about canopy flying at this loading.Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #25 March 7, 2002 Dude, I know you're real good, I know you stand up all your landings, and I know you hit the center of the peas on every jump. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm not taking jabs at you. I believe you when you say you think you're ready for this.Despite this, I will personally guarantee that you will duff in before you hit 100 jumps. If you don't I will eat my shorts. Literally. I'm that sure you'll screw up, at least once.You need to decide now what kind of injury you want when that happens. You're into the range now that you won't kill yourself, but you will end up in the hospital. You will have to stay overnight, and you will have at least one cast on when you leave. I hope you have good health insurance.Go back up to the 170 and you will probably walk out with tensor bandages. Go up to the 190 and you probably won't even need to go. Go down to a 130 or 110 and you won't walk out. It's that simple._AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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PhillyKev 0 #8 March 6, 2002 If you have the option, go for a demo program. The Squares offer free or discounted rentals if you put a deposit down on new gear (depending on the amount you put down). That gives you the opportunity to downsize, get more experience, and try out different equipment before purchasing.cielos azules y cerveza fría-Kevin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rendezvous 0 #9 March 6, 2002 I weigh 170 at exit and fly a 175 triathalon. Haven't had any issues with it. It's not fast and it's not slow to the point that you feel you aren't coming down that day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #10 March 6, 2002 Triathlon is a GREAT. FORGIVING, SAFE!! First canopy..If my son were to start jumping today I would put him on a Triathlon..Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #11 March 7, 2002 Rhino it's comments like yours that made me buy a Triathalon for my first canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #12 March 7, 2002 It is the truth isn't it..What do you think about your Triathlon??Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #13 March 7, 2002 Dunno, owned the damn thing for over a year and haven't jumped it yet I sent it off Tuesday for a reline and should be jumping it sometime in April when I get my rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #14 March 7, 2002 Call me nutz- Wouldn't be the first time- I went directly from the 280' Mantas (read- Goodyear Blimps) to a 150 spectre after 20 jumps in the static line course- After that I made a 3-4 jumps under bigger (170-230') canopies - but I wound up buying the Spectre rig - Thought I might try going up to a 170, but decided to go ahead and continue jumping the 150-- It's a little fast and I enjoy it- Now here's the punch line - I go out the door at 200 pounds - with 32 jumps to date- Think I'm loaded a little?Life begins at 14,000' - Shut up and jump! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #15 March 7, 2002 You're crazy. I'd never consider a jump like that to that loading. You shouldn't put a knife in the toaster - but you're an adult now !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #16 March 7, 2002 Quotedecided to go ahead and continue jumping the 150-- It's a little fast and I enjoy it- Now here's the punch line - I go out the door at 200 pounds - with 32 jumps to date- Think I'm loaded a little?Dude, I mean no disrespect when I say this, but I think you're about to become a statistic. You're doing at 30 jumps what I'm doing at 300. I hope your injuries are mild, my friend._AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #17 March 7, 2002 QuoteThink I'm loaded a little?Are you bragging about it? Hope you're lucky and everything always goes 100% right cuz you're asking for trouble, imho...pull and flare,lisa---Mondays suck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Engovatov 0 #18 March 7, 2002 >Think I'm loaded a little?I think you are fine as long as you are not on a busy DZ and pay attention to what are you doing. 1.33 is not that bad at all - actual difference in speed, turn rate, altitude loss, if anybody actually measures it, in hard numbers, between 150 and, say, 190 is not that big, MUCH less then typical difference between reaction rate and bone strength for different individuals, so making general recommendations is rather pointless in my opinion.BUT! If three people who saw you fly and land told you "Dude, you better be careful out there" and/or you can not land it where you want (+/- 20m) every time, you better pack this main and find yourself something bigger for a while. Not that it necessarily will make you any safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #19 March 7, 2002 QuoteHope you're lucky and everything always goes 100% right cuz you're asking for trouble, imho...Holy crap, I agree with Lisa. I owe beer Seriously though. You choose your main based on how hard you want to wipe out, not on how well you land on the average landing.I'm hoping my eventual injuries under my 1.1 loaded Triathalon will be bruises and sprains instead of broken bones and compound fractures, it's why I chose a docile canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albatross 0 #20 March 7, 2002 O.K. someone has to make this little speach and since i I think that Lisa's voice is tired I will do it. I don't think that a jumper with 32 jumps is ready to load a conopy at like 1.5:1 even on a tame "conventional" conopy like aTriathalon or Spectre. I am sure that under good conditions that you can land and that almost always you will be fine. However, you are not flying the canopy with anywhere near the optimal results and if you do accidently make that critical move (low turn, avoidance, or tight landing) you will see the problems multipy possibly to your pain or worse. I have 300+ jumps on a Spectre 170 loaded at 1.1:1 and just took aone of the best canopy classes in the country (Jim Slaton). He made the point that if you are loading the conopy like 1.5 and you are flying slowly it will be doscile but when you pull on a riser or burry a toggle it will come out and bite you. Do your health insurance a favor and UP size to near 1:1 and slowly milk all you can form that then move back down in size. All we want is to see you make that 100th jump with outa ton of mettle in you body.God bless us and God Bless AmericaAlbatross Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #21 March 7, 2002 You need to be between 1.0 and 1.2 for 200-250 jumps.. Depending on how well you fly a canopy.. You don't need to be learning under something you feel is too fast.Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #22 March 7, 2002 I sincerely appreciate all the feedback! i sure didn't expect so much input! I do have ALOT of respect for the canopy and it's loading, and I am fortunate I'm at a small DZ- Rarely do we have more than a few canopies in the air- I am also very careful in regards to low turns, etc- My accuracy is pretty good, usually within 10-20m, and I'm building a stronger relationship with my canopy each time I jump it. I hope I'm not coming across as cocky-Blue ones!-Life begins at 14,000' - Shut up and jump! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #23 March 7, 2002 Well, I'm just another lousy JM/I from a small Cessna DZ but light traffic or not, good accuracy or not, the first time that some one cuts you off under canopy and you bury a toggle to avoid them your canopy is probably going to hit the ground before you do.Sorry, don't mean to sound harsh but that wing-loading is a bit too high for 95% of the jumpers out there to "build a relationship" with.My recommendation, find an experienced jumper with a Sabre 170 looking to go to a 150 and trade. 1.33:1 (200# out the door divided by Sabre 150...) is entirely too high of a wing-loading to start with and something I would not let any of my students start with.My opinion is that with a wing-loading that high you will be too busy trying to keep things under control while you also have to think 3 minutes ahead for you to be able to learn your canopy.Again, not trying to be harsh, I just want to see you enjoying the sport several years from now. KrisIAD-JM/IOooohh! Can I have CN#3?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #24 March 7, 2002 Kris... did'nt you get the memo? The CN#'s were retired and the entire program scraped. Everyone go get a VX 65 for all I care anymore.Wingloading 1:1 jumps grad to 1001.2-1.3 100 to what ever1.4 and up.... you better be smart enough to know ALL about canopy flying at this loading.Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #25 March 7, 2002 Dude, I know you're real good, I know you stand up all your landings, and I know you hit the center of the peas on every jump. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm not taking jabs at you. I believe you when you say you think you're ready for this.Despite this, I will personally guarantee that you will duff in before you hit 100 jumps. If you don't I will eat my shorts. Literally. I'm that sure you'll screw up, at least once.You need to decide now what kind of injury you want when that happens. You're into the range now that you won't kill yourself, but you will end up in the hospital. You will have to stay overnight, and you will have at least one cast on when you leave. I hope you have good health insurance.Go back up to the 170 and you will probably walk out with tensor bandages. Go up to the 190 and you probably won't even need to go. Go down to a 130 or 110 and you won't walk out. It's that simple._AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
