Wing loading for first rig

[rhino 0]

Yes.. Fact of the matter is they or WE shouldn't jump when winds are that high.. It is unfortunate that I had to learn about high winds from experience scaring the hell out of me rather than a dzo telling me not to jump because that gear might be dangerous in high wind. What have I learned? Obviously not to jump in wind that high and to voice my concerns to others I see jumping gear like that in high wind.. But some people just have to learn by the school of hard knocks..
Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!
http://www.aahit.com

[Engovatov 0]

>But some people just have to learn by the school of hard knocks..
Once it was under 10 mph for the whole day with perfect forecast - when the plane went on the jump run, or so I was told. It was 20+ gusts when I landed. I was sure happy not to be on the rental gear (which is usually grounded when wind goes up anyway, but not in this case).. Hard knocks may come when you do not know - it is better to be ready, is not it?

[rhino 0]

Yep.. Always be ready...
Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!
http://www.aahit.com

[billvon 3,075]

>Give me two months to train someone, I don't think I could talk that long, and put a 1st jump student on a 107
>or 120 and they are going to get hurt. I agree that students should get more canopy training but I
>disagree that w/ enough training they will be ready for a small canopy right out of the gate. There is no way,
>w/ any amount of training, that I could have handled a 107 or 120 on my first jump.
With today's training, I agree. However, there was a time, not so long ago, where putting a student out on a freefall for his first jump would be considered suicidal. And they were right - if you threw a SL student out of the plane at 12k with nothing but a throwout rig on, of the type I used when I learned to skydive, there's a pretty good chance he wouldn't survive. Advances in both training and supervision have allowed AFF and tandem jumpers to experience freefall on their first jump.
I think this will one day translate to sooner transitions to small canopies. You say you could not land a 120 on your first jump (let's say a 1.5 to 1 loading for arguments sake) - could you have landed a 300 sq ft tandem canopy if the TM had his hands in the toggles with you, talking you through it? I think I could - heck, that's how I learned how to land an airplane. Again, five years ago they didn't even have tandem mains smaller than 400 sq ft - nowadays 330's are becoming popular.
After a few jumps on that 1.4 to 1 loaded tandem canopy, a jumper is going to be relatively safe making his first solo on a 1 to 1 canopy. He's not going to "stick his hand out to break his fall" because he's felt what that will do to a landing canopy. He knows he has to fly it through the flare, and how to judge flare height etc. Perhaps most importantly, his JM will have a very good idea how skilled he is at landing, and can put him on an appropriate canopy.
If such training does ever happen, it will help overcome one of the biggest problems in HP canopy flight - overcoming bad habits learned on larger canopies. I think that jumpers who actually go through a rigorous training program are better at canopy control at 50 jumps than most jumpers are at 200 jumps, because they have fewer bad habits to unlearn, and they actually learn on every jump rather than just survive. If anything, I think one of the problems we have today is not that such programs exist, but that they make other jumpers think that such programs somehow make it safer for untrained jumpers to go to smaller canopies sooner. "Hey, that guy with 100 jumps has a Stiletto 120, I should be fine with a 135 at 150 jumps, right?" Without the right training, that canopy is as deadly as ever in inexperienced hands.
-bill von

[Hooknswoop 19]

Bill-
I completely agree. I have taught both straight AFF and 3 tandems+15 solo instructor freefall jumps. As long as they tandems were conducted properly, the student was light years ahead of an AFF student. The wingloadings were from .9 to 1.1 w/ 0-P 9 cell mains. The results were amazing, resulting in the graduate being able to downsize safely much faster than is traditional.
My argument was against the idea that w/ todays training and unlimited class room time, it still wouldn't be prudent to put an AFF level 1 under a Stiletoo 107 at 1.4ish.
Nowadays, airline pilots can be certified in a new aircraft they have never actually flown. All the work is done in classrooms and high-speed simulators. This isn't the same as putting someone that has never flown before in a classroom and a simulator, then handing them the keys to a Cessna 172, a nice little diploma, and a license.
Hook

[Engovatov 0]

>I think that jumpers who actually go through a rigorous training program are better at canopy control at 50 jumps than most jumpers are at 200 jumps,
Here we go. Is not it the whole idea of many immersive, accelerated training schemes that you minimize the amount of bad habits, that you have to unlearn, in a controlled environment? It seems to me, for all the proponents of "take it real slow" approach, that logging hundreds of jumps on something that is not even close to what you will be jumping later, may be even worse then wasting the time? Sure, on a big boat stupid mistake will not kill you, but once you move down, you will have a lot of bad habits and reaction time wired to your brain to unlearn. All you really learned is the confidence of just being up there - but that may have the effect of dumbing down your alert level. Probably it would be safer overall to take the bite and learn relevant skills as soon as possible - under supervision.
I took quite a few people on there first ever outdoor climb. What I found to be the best approach - I pick up a long, multi-pitch beautiful route offering real reward for doing it, that I am very comfortable leading, and just haul their asses up there - instead of gradually progressing to the bigger stuff from boring crappy "training" climbs. It is a shock in the beginning, but after that they make much more proficient partners then most, who spent tens of climbs slowly working there way out of a top-rope.
The idea is - to strike a balance between panic and fun - and that's up to the teacher to find it for each individual. So one have to learn relevant skills: under stress enough not to allow bad habits to develop, but relaxed and having fun not to freeze and not to develop tunnel vision and fear of doing something new. The only drawback - it takes much more responsibility on the leader/instructor to do initial estimate and find this balance, or to have a good contingency plan when shit happens (once had to rappel with a guy who was in a fear induced panic freeze.. brrr.. he lived and was rather happy afterwards.. ;) - it is also puts instructor under bigger risk.. But it is usually clear rather soon... - and beats having to deal with a tumbling Level 3, I would guess (saw video once - girl was going from release to the pull spinning head over feet like a propeller.. Ouch..)

[PhreeZone 20]

The problem is you can'nt always tell who will freak until they do. While climbing this is a big deal but one that can be delt with. Another climber can help them or actually do some of the work with them to get them to repel or be lowered down. When someone freaks under canopy there is no one standing right there to bail them out of the problem unless they are on a tandem.
Not many instructors are willing or have the time to stand out in the LZ and coach every jumper that lands to teach them good habits on every jump like whats required to rapidly downsize. There are places that cater just to the jumper that is willing to pay for this typing of coaching, but they are not every where yet. Only truly dedicated jumpers focus on one skill and those that truely teach it are even more rare.
An with an intense one on one method like this on a big canopy there are not many bad habits to unlearn and you get the added saftey of a larger canopy to start with. You become profient on gear that you might still be with 150 jumps later.
Look at the numbers, most people don't last much over 3 years in the sport. Most never clear 200 jumps a year.Its not unreasonible to think you will still be on the same gear a full year from when you started if you are not a hot-shit swooper wanna be.
Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush

[Engovatov 0]

> Look at the numbers, most people don't last much over 3 years in the sport.
That's true. Personally, I am scared, and not sure if I will ever jump again.. Just wasting my time arguing on the net, while I had some free time at work.. Just observed that there may be some similarities in the training pattern in many dangerous sports (and actually - I bet, you would prefer a freaked out guy under some far away canopy, than one on the other end of the rope tied to YOU. ;-))) Cruel of course..
I was NOT arguing for smallish mains at all. Only for the small enough that actual penetration, and ability to use control inputs somehow resemble what majority of people use. That would be an equivalent to an easy 5.8 in trad climbing - possibly challenging, but accessible for most people..