JackC1 0
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obelixtim 150
QuoteQuoteAnd as I already said, the reasons for the cutaway in the OP are basically irrelevant.....90% of mals are prolly preventable and are due to carelessness.
The reasons for the mal are very relevant. To fail to avoid an avoidable mal is basically stupid. The fact that he chopped is totally unremarkable.
My point was specifically tailored to the context that the OP´s proposition that the cutaway was "very dangerous", and doing so at 1000 feet is somehow stupid...
In fact it was neither stupid or dangerous, and in general terms, executing your EP´s properly at 1000 feet will save your life.
In that context, the reasons for the cutaway ARE irrelevant. The jumper can argue that point with his packer over a beer. That he is in a position to do so is largely due to the correct decision making and use of his EP´s.
And THAT is the important lesson to be learned from this video.....
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....
JackC1 0
QuoteIn fact it was neither stupid or dangerous, and in general terms, executing your EP´s properly at 1000 feet will probably save your life.
FIFY. Reserves mal too.
QuoteIn that context, the reasons for the cutaway ARE irrelevant. The jumper can argue that point with his packer over a beer. That he is in a position to do so is largely due to the correct decision making and use of his EP´s.
And THAT is the important lesson to be learned from this video.....
I'd say the real lesson from this video is not that you can chop at 1000ft and be fine but that paying attention when you pop your brakes might mean you wont have to.
obelixtim 150
QuoteFIFY. Reserves mal too.
Jumping since 1974, rigger since 1979, I have packed thousands of reserves, and have seen a few hundred used. Used a few myself.
I`ve never seen one mal when correct EP´s have been carried out.
A reserve mal is so rare I consider it an infintesimal risk. If that factor influences someone to hesitate to use their reserve, then my advice to them is to step away from skydiving....permanently.
Always trust your reserve...it´ll do its job if used correctly. History proves that.
Of more concern is the human using it....because that is where the complications arise...
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....
JackC1 0
Then you've been lucky. I have seen a reserve mal that ended in a life flight. Luckily the injuries weren't severe.
I'd say that anyone who doesn't take preventable mals seriously because they think their reserve is bullet proof, should probably reconsider their participation in this sport.
I'd say that anyone who doesn't take preventable mals seriously because they think their reserve is bullet proof, should probably reconsider their participation in this sport.
obelixtim 150
QuoteThen you've been lucky. I have seen a reserve mal that ended in a life flight. Luckily the injuries weren't severe.
Out of interest, was that a deployment into clean air, with a stable body position?. I.e, Were there other factors that affected the deployment.
QuoteI'd say that anyone who doesn't take preventable mals seriously because they think their reserve is bullet proof, should probably reconsider their participation in this sport.
I agree.....remove that link from the chain and your chances of survival go up dramatically.
There is no excuse for sloppiness.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....
JackC1 0
QuoteOut of interest, was that a deployment into clean air, with a stable body position?. I.e, Were there other factors that affected the deployment.
The deployment was clean and stable. The problem was a stuck toggle resulting in the need for a rear riser landing. The canopy stalled and collapsed. Basically the same problem (although different cause) that the guy in the video cut away from.
obelixtim 150
A stuck toggle?.
That sounds like a rigging error. Did the jumper not carry a hook knife?. Again the human factor comes into play. I would not blame the reserve for that, if it did its first job and opened cleanly, thus stopping the FF.
That sounds like a rigging error. Did the jumper not carry a hook knife?. Again the human factor comes into play. I would not blame the reserve for that, if it did its first job and opened cleanly, thus stopping the FF.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....
QuoteA stuck toggle?.
That sounds like a rigging error. Did the jumper not carry a hook knife?. Again the human factor comes into play. I would not blame the reserve for that, if it did its first job and opened cleanly, thus stopping the FF.
That would bring us back to the argument (not mine) that you should fear your reserve? Skydiving is not an exact science! The reserve is there to save your life. Use it when you need it. Don't create situations for its use!
Birdshit & Fools Productions
"Son, only two things fall from the sky."
"Son, only two things fall from the sky."
obelixtim 150
QuoteQuoteA stuck toggle?.
That sounds like a rigging error. Did the jumper not carry a hook knife?. Again the human factor comes into play. I would not blame the reserve for that, if it did its first job and opened cleanly, thus stopping the FF.
That would bring us back to the argument (not mine) that you should fear your reserve? Skydiving is not an exact science! The reserve is there to save your life. Use it when you need it. Don't create situations for its use!
I still wouldn´t fear the reserve...in that case it sounds like it opened correctly and saved the jumpers life. If one toggle then hung up when the jumper released the brakes, that is a rigging error. The reserve didn´t malfunction.
In that case the only fear would be on the part of the rigger, his fear of my boot contacting his sorry arse.
Nowhere am I condoning sloppy packing or anything like that (creating reasons for its use)..... I have little tolerance for carelessness on the DZ.
My point is simply that if you are in a situation where you are not sure you can land your main canopy safely due to a problem with it, the best and safest option is to cutaway and use your reserve.
It always has been and always will be.
If anyone really has a fear of using their reserve, they should really give serious consideration as to whether skydiving is really the right sport for them.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....
billvon 3,063
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>That would bring us back to the argument (not mine) that you should fear your reserve?
You should know that it can malfunction just as your main can. You don't need to fear it, but you do need to weigh the risks.
You should know that it can malfunction just as your main can. You don't need to fear it, but you do need to weigh the risks.
elias123 0
Might you be referring to Sangi?
"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"
Hi All!
Just wanted to share a recent experience. I am a newer jumper, in the sport just a year now. Besides the bonfire, I don't really post all that much. Mostly just lurk, read, think, and ask my instructors their opinions.
This past sunday, I had my first chop and it was very similar to this. I read this thread most of the way through as it was happening, thought about the different options (landing on rears, wrapping my right brake to compensate, ect.) and also asked opinions from the guys at my home dz.
So there I was, open a little lower than normal for me (was in a five way and had to track further for clear air space, someone was closer than I like), but under a good canopy between 2500-2000ft. When I went to unstow my brakes to do my controlability check, right one pops, left one won't budge. Yank on it a few times, reach up to see if I can figure out what is stuck (which causes me to start spiralling as I am not braking on my right anymore), and at this point I immediatley decided to chop.
I was at my decision altitude, I wasn't comfortable I could safely land the canopy I had, this situation was something I had considered from reading this thread, no hesistation, chopped, under reserve by 1500-1200ft. Landed uneventfully on the dz, free bag 40 yards away, main recovered, even found the handle that i threw 
A lot of people with more experience may argue that they would have done things differently, but at the end of the day, chopping was the right decision for me in this situation. My instructors agreed, and as we enjoyed the case of beer i bought, we talked about it. There are def things i could have done better/differently, but I learned from it, and was prepared for this situation due to seeing/reading about someone else's experiences on here. I made my decision and didn't hesistate to react.
Examination of my main did not reveal what caused the left toggle to be stuck. It was still stowed when recovered, but not "locked" by anything or misrouted.
I guess my point is, I just wanted to thank everyone for their thoughts and posts on here. Reading thru the different situations and hearing opinions on how to react can def help us newer jumpers. I ALWAYS ask my instructors at my dz their opinions, but many of the conversations and questions I have asked have come from something I saw or read on here.
Blue skies everyone! Can't wait to get back in the air this weekend!
nice job. Just wondering though, why would you allow a spin to happen while your trying to see what is wrong? All your doing is losing altitude and working time at that point, after all had you not allowed the spin to go on, you pretty much had a open canopy.
Not faulting your actions, just wondering.
Based on your account, (I've been there done that) I would have not let go of the right toggle and would have kept it flying forward while I looked it over, might have even just re-stowed the right toggle. (my decision altitude is most likely much lower then yours though)
Not faulting your actions, just wondering.
Based on your account, (I've been there done that) I would have not let go of the right toggle and would have kept it flying forward while I looked it over, might have even just re-stowed the right toggle. (my decision altitude is most likely much lower then yours though)
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo
Trying to react to fixing the problem before thinking about the effect of releasing the other toggle would have lol. I was so focused on trying to see/fix the left side, I didn't even consider that I needed to keep applying brakes to my right to keep myself flying straight and level.
One of the things that we talked about that I could/should have handled differently. If I had kept braking or restowed the right side, I may have had more time to look at/try to fix the problem and not had to cut. As I started spiraling, I was thinking, "nice job dummy, you needed that not to start spinning". By allowing the spin to start though, and the loss of altitude that occured, it put me at my decision alti.
Had I been higher, I immediatley would have grabbed my right toggle to stop and reassessed. Good case of think about the reaction before you take action...
Please do not try to re-stow a toggle under canopy. It's very difficult at best, and you'll induce a turn the other way while trying to do so.
Think about it, one brake is stowed, so to fly straight you need the cats-eye (the hole in the sterring line the toggle goes through) needs to be right at the guidering to make it go straight. Now if you want to restow the brake, you'll need to pull it further down so you can get to the cats-eye with the toggle, and this will just make you turn the other way.
Also, you would need to pull the brake line with your hand just below the cats eye to make slack in the lower steering line so you can get the toggle through the line. Not advisable for the most part.
Any problem that takes two hands to fix is probably too much problem to be tyring to fix anyway. Use one hand to keep the canopy flying straight, and your eyes and the other hand to work the problem. If you really feel like your other hand is going to be the key to solving the problem, keep the toggle around your hand, and reach across. It will maintain most the input, and keep the turn rate low if the canopy does turn.
Note- the toggle needs to stay above your thumb. Around your hand, but above your thumb. Do not let the toggle past your thumb down onto your wrist. It might make it easier to work the problem with your hand, but there is a very real possibility that you're going to cutaway, and a toggle around yoru wrist is another problem you don't need at that time.
Above all, watch your altitude. RESPECT your decision altitude, and don't fall into the 'just one more second' trap. You are either in control or not when you reach your decision altitude, and you need to react accordingly without delay.
Think about it, one brake is stowed, so to fly straight you need the cats-eye (the hole in the sterring line the toggle goes through) needs to be right at the guidering to make it go straight. Now if you want to restow the brake, you'll need to pull it further down so you can get to the cats-eye with the toggle, and this will just make you turn the other way.
Also, you would need to pull the brake line with your hand just below the cats eye to make slack in the lower steering line so you can get the toggle through the line. Not advisable for the most part.
Any problem that takes two hands to fix is probably too much problem to be tyring to fix anyway. Use one hand to keep the canopy flying straight, and your eyes and the other hand to work the problem. If you really feel like your other hand is going to be the key to solving the problem, keep the toggle around your hand, and reach across. It will maintain most the input, and keep the turn rate low if the canopy does turn.
Note- the toggle needs to stay above your thumb. Around your hand, but above your thumb. Do not let the toggle past your thumb down onto your wrist. It might make it easier to work the problem with your hand, but there is a very real possibility that you're going to cutaway, and a toggle around yoru wrist is another problem you don't need at that time.
Above all, watch your altitude. RESPECT your decision altitude, and don't fall into the 'just one more second' trap. You are either in control or not when you reach your decision altitude, and you need to react accordingly without delay.
obelixtim 150
Firstly, nice job on the decision making and prompt action in carrying it out. You dealt with it and walked away unharmed and that is the important part.
I bet the beer tasted a little sweeter too!!!.
Its easy, and common to sit back later on and figure out what you might have done differently, but your story illustrates one point that you have now experienced.....that of target fixation...while dealing and focussing on one problem, (the hang up) you didn't think of reapplying input into the right toggle.
The effect of adrenalin and a bit of stress tends to narrow our focus somewhat.
But thats OK.
The really important point is that your training kicked in when you reached your hard deck, and you reacted correctly.
Mid air rigging is not a good idea, and next time you may react a little differently. But just keep in mind that two situations are not often exactly the same. Next time you may try to sort it out, but then again next time the instant chop might be the best solution.
Anyway. well done. You've learned a good lesson about dealing with pressure.
I bet the beer tasted a little sweeter too!!!.
Its easy, and common to sit back later on and figure out what you might have done differently, but your story illustrates one point that you have now experienced.....that of target fixation...while dealing and focussing on one problem, (the hang up) you didn't think of reapplying input into the right toggle.
The effect of adrenalin and a bit of stress tends to narrow our focus somewhat.
But thats OK.
The really important point is that your training kicked in when you reached your hard deck, and you reacted correctly.
Mid air rigging is not a good idea, and next time you may react a little differently. But just keep in mind that two situations are not often exactly the same. Next time you may try to sort it out, but then again next time the instant chop might be the best solution.
Anyway. well done. You've learned a good lesson about dealing with pressure.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....
Like I said, good job handing the problem at your level of Exp. You hit your DA and reacted as you should have... you chopped it and no one could fault you for that.
As for in air rigging... no where in my post did I say "you" should have done that... I said "I"
might have tried that, done it once on a batwing 134.
Biggest thing to take away is, you now know you work and the system works, the rest you can sort out over a beer.
Thanks for sharing your story.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo
Thanks to all three of your for the feedback! Lots of good things to think about and consider.
Dave, I appreciate you outlining all the difficulties in trying to restow a brake while under canopy, as well as other pointers as to what to watch out for and what could have helped had altitude allowed.
The thought to try and restow a brake had not ever crossed my mind until reading Strats post, and even if time had allowed, I doubt I would have tried it. My reply was simply addressing a few of the points that he had brought up.
Oblex, you are 100% right with the target fixation, I just hadn't thought about it that way. That is the only thing I wish I had really done differently, being more aware of everything outside the stuck toggle. All in all though, it felt good to know under pressure that I reacted quickly, decisively, and that beer did taste good!
Dave, I appreciate you outlining all the difficulties in trying to restow a brake while under canopy, as well as other pointers as to what to watch out for and what could have helped had altitude allowed.
The thought to try and restow a brake had not ever crossed my mind until reading Strats post, and even if time had allowed, I doubt I would have tried it. My reply was simply addressing a few of the points that he had brought up.
Oblex, you are 100% right with the target fixation, I just hadn't thought about it that way. That is the only thing I wish I had really done differently, being more aware of everything outside the stuck toggle. All in all though, it felt good to know under pressure that I reacted quickly, decisively, and that beer did taste good!
You had a canopy you could neither control nor land...........good job......welcome to the cutaway club......
The reasons for the mal are very relevant. To fail to avoid an avoidable mal is basically stupid. The fact that he chopped is totally unremarkable.
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