How big of a difference is there 190-210

[Viking 0]

I was trying to figure out which size to get once i get the $$$. I want there to be enough there for me to keep pushing the edge as my experince grows. Is the change between say a Hornet 190 and a 210 that big?
I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver

[riggerrob 643]

Mr. Viking,
How much do you weight?
What size of canopy have you been jumping lately?
How comfortable are you with that canopy?
Have you flown all the exercises in the Basic Canopy Flight 101 textbook with that canopy?

[Viking 0]

Mr. Rob i weight around 190 no gear. I am Currently flying a PD260, I am very comfy with this canopy, i plan to step down to a 230 today after i get one jump on the pd260. By the time i have enough casht o buy my own gear i will probly be jumping the 230 on a regualr basis. Plus we have a Tri 190 i can try out.
I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver

[freeflir29 0]

If you are comfortable with the Tri 190 I just might have a PD 190 for sale pretty soon. About 150 jumps on it and in very good condition. Always packed in doors and the lines are still very much in trim. I haven't decided on a price yet but I know I can't get too much out of it. I went from a Falcon 260 to a Aeroglide 235, to a 220 and then a 190 by the time I had about 20-30 jumps. I know I didn't jump the 190 until after I had my A Lic because that rig didn't have a Cypres in it. The first jump is always a little scary on a new canopy. Just prepare yourself and downsize slowly.
"I only have a C license, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[Viking 0]

I have decided to stay with a 210 after a nice talk with Bill, and Andy the manager of the DZ who was also on the british parachute team.
I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver

[riggerrob 643]

Sounds like a logical procession to me.
For comparison, at Pitt Meadows, we start students out with Manta 290s or Skymaster 290s.
Most are jumping Skymaster 230s by the time they graduate PFF.
By the time they write their A Certificate Exam, most have transitioned to Hornet 190s (still in student rigs).
When they buy gear, it is usually a Triathlon, Sabre or Hornet in the 190 - 150 range.
The market for used F-111 canopies has dropped off dramatically here, so we still have a few decent F-111 canopies gathering dust.

[DZDale 0]

How many Jumps do you have ? This will give me a better idea on how to advise you. Im no guru on the subject, but if you weigh 190 without gear you should probably weigh about 220 max with gear. Therefore your wing load will be about 1.15 lbs / 1 square foot. This is a fairly light wing load. Im sure that 20 - 30 jumps will be enough to handle this wing loading and you shouldnt get bored too quickly. If you jump a 210 your wing load will be 1.04lbs / 1 square foot which is pretty low, you would probably get bored rather quickely. That was just an opinion, As I said Im no expert, so rather speak to someone with more experience in this subject.
Good luck with your choice
"My exit weight is 254lbs which gives me a wing loading of 1.33 on a 190, performance is good, but not out of hand"
Dale

[AggieDave 6]

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if you weigh 190 without gear you should probably weigh about 220 max with gear

Are you jumping an old Warthog with a Laser 9 266 or something, that's a lot to account for with weight. I've been jumping some older gear for a bit (can't afford anything cool, yet) and it only adds about 10lbs to my exit weight, also being about 250lbs coincidentally.
"Give me one ping and one ping only..."

[PhreeZone 20]

Gee... The new Sabre2 135 I just got weighed 7 pounds for shipping... My Javelin J2 weighed in at another 7 pounds when I shipped it to Sunpath for work last winter. I'm guessing my Reserve weights in at 6-7 pounds and half a pound for the Cypres. Thats only 20 pounds... I'd love to have ligher gear...
I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB

[rapper4mpi 0]

One thing I can say from personal experience. A F-111 PD 190 with an exit weight of 200 or more is not going to give you the softest landings.
-Rap

[freeflir29 0]

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A F-111 PD 190 with an exit weight of 200 or more is not going to give you the softest landings.

Hmmm...maybe you missed a couple hundred of my posts..... It's all about who is flying it...if you suck ...it's gonna hurt.....if you don't ....you can get respectable swoops...
"I only have a C license, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[weid14 0]

The CYPRES is actaully a pretty hefty little bugger, it surprised me how heavy it is -- all battery weight. I'd say it's closer to a pound or more.

[weid14 0]

you forgot to add: when it's new cause new 0-3cfm material is much closer to Zpo, but as it gets older and more porus, the landings become less than spectacular.

[PhreeZone 20]

Yeah... I was going at the smallest numbers I could think of to see if there was anyway I could get a 10 pound rig... I Know my rig weighs around 22 pounds and with my helmet, camera, and gear I have to add 25 pounds to my bodyweight to get my exit weight.
I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB

[Remster 30]

Agreed on the 20 lbs... I use 25 as a average rule of thumb....
Remster
Muff 914

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

: when it's new cause new 0-3cfm material is much closer to Zpo, but as it gets older and more porus, the landings become less than spectacular.

Very true!!! I have flown a rag or two in my time. I also used to fly a RETIRED Golden Knight PD 190 that had Lord knows how many jumps on it. That one flew great...*shrug* I also rented a Falcon 215 from ASC once that did pretty much nothing when I tried to flare it...."I only have a C license, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[PhreeZone 20]

700 is about the Max you can get with any flare power left on an f1-11 canopy. The permibility increases too much after that point to continue to have good flaring and landings with out wrapping the toggles or something.
I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB

[Merrick 0]

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"How big of a difference is there 190-210"

Uhhh... about 20sqft!
lol
Not going to get into the whole pd190 damned if ya do, damned if ya don't debacle, but as for the original post.

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"only adds about 10lbs to my exit weight"

Not saying you're full of shit Dave.... but you're full of shit! lol I've picked up little super-swooper rigs that weigh more than 10lbs. I jumped a J4, Sabre190, pd176, w/cypress and it weighed about 15 lbs itself, and I believe you were jumping a similar set-up. Anyway, one thing I think people tend to overlook is MAX exit weight.... which means, all those extra layers you pile on under your jumpsuit for cold-weather jumping, plus your jumpsuit, altimeter, helmet, shoes, etc... absolutely everything! I weigh 200 lbs nekkid, & had been calculating my wing loading based on an educated guess of 220 exit weight. One day out of pure curiosity I geared up with EVERYTHING I would be wearing on my coldest day of jumping.... my exit weight was just over 230 ... surprised the hell out of me. I also weighed with normal gear, shorts & t-shir under my jumpsuit, and still weighed just under 225.... was a bit of an eye opener!
As for viking, as long as you're a competent pilot relative to the number of jumps you have (heads-up, standing up your landings - EVERYWHERE you land), there's no doubt in my mind you could handle a 190. My first rig had a Sabre190 and I started jumping it on jump #16, I weighed 190 at the time... it provided plenty of performance AND was very forgivable. Anyway, just go with you gut, and listen to your instructors tell you, whatever you get will be a blast!
Blues!
"Pammi's Hemp/Skydiving Jewelry"

[polarbear 1]

I find that most people underestimate the weight of their gear. Most rigs that I have actually weighed (and I mean new, modern ones, and not gigantic student rigs) come in on average around 20 pounds. My rig, which is a brand new mirage M3 with a 150 main, 160 reserve, and cypres, comes in at 22 lbs. By the time you add jumpsuit, goggles, helmet, altimeter, gloves, etc., I find that equipment typically weighs between 25-30 lbs. A single parachute weighs about 6 lbs on average; unless you jump a teeny-tiny (sub-sub-100) main/reserve/container it is unlikely that your rig weighs only 10 lbs.
As to the real question of this thread, listen to the advice of your instructors...they know your flying capabilities and should be able to give you informed suggestions. You might think about getting a used main; it is very possible you will get bored with a larger (210) canopy after a relatively small number of jumps. If you were to buy this canopy new, and then sell it after 50 jumps, chances are good you would loose money. If you bought it used, you should be able to break even.

[Hooknswoop 19]

The difference between a 210 and a 190 is about 10%. (20 sq ft is 10.5 % of 190 sq ft). So w/ the increase in wingloading, you can expect 11-14% increase in performance. These are rough numbers, but best I can do.
As for gear weight, smaller rigs don't weight all that much less than bigger rigs. I have a Micron 304, VX-60, and a MR-109-M and w/ a jumpsuit and helmet, adds 25 lbs to my exit weight. Fabric isn't very heavy so downsizing doesn't save much weight. The harness will weight the same for a smaller container w/ a little less cordura for the container. Adding rings to the harness increases the weight. I use 25 lbs for gear unless the container is really big (tandem which IIRC is about 45 lbs.)
Hook

[rapper4mpi 0]

I guess you could say that mine was a bit tired...at probably over 1,000 jumps. I stand corrected!
-Rap

[weid14 0]

I'm sure Quade has a good answer, but I don't think that it is a straight linear relationship between size and perfomance (depending on what you're talking about I suppose ). In other words, a 10% size reduction would result in a higher performance gain than 10%.

[Hooknswoop 19]

From my post:
The difference between a 210 and a 190 is about 10%. (20 sq ft is 10.5 % of 190 sq ft). So w/ the increase in wingloading, ----------------you can expect 11-14% increase in performance--------------------------------.
You're right, it isn't linear, ecspecially as you get smaller. The differrence in perfromance when downsizing from a 210 to a 220, all other things being equal is pretty small. Going from a 80 to a 70 is a large difference.
Hook