Opinion on gear for a new jumper wanted

[skymick 0]

Gday all, Im an A license jumper with about 45 jumps (only about 22 current though) and im in the market for a rig. Im looking at right now, it is a '93 ATOM container with a 190 techno reserve and 170 stiletto. I weigh about 80kg so that gives me a wing loading of about 1.15. Ive spoken to many instructors and the CI at my DZ and they all think that the stiletto will be good for me due to the lower wing loading as long as i fly it conservately. Im a bit worried of what might happen if i stuff up one day and i have to do a downwind landing or similar. Im good under canopy (for my experience level) and I get stand up landings consistantly plus my accuracy is usually about 10m from the target. So far ive jumped a RAVEN 3,4 and a X228. Will this canopy be suitable for me? Any other comments/suggestions?
Thanks,
Mick

[skybytch 273]

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Im a bit worried of what might happen if i stuff up one day and i have to do a downwind landing or similar.

That's your common sense speaking; listen to it! The smallest canopy you've jumped to date is 228 square feet... (is the X228 zp or F111?). Dropping almost 60 square feet and going to a fully elliptical canopy in one step at under 50 jumps is not a recipe for long term survival in the sport. Had your first 50 jumps been on zp mains loaded at 1.0 or so this might not be such a big step and you might actually be "ready" for this canopy. With what you've been flying I would highly recommend not buying a Stiletto at any loading just yet.
You might be "just fine" under that canopy as long as you "fly conservatively" and everything goes 100% perfect for you on every skydive. But shit happens. Why not get a canopy sized and of a type that you don't have to fly it conservatively? If aggressive landings are your long term goal, flying a Stiletto at 1.15 conservatively isn't going to allow you to learn what you need to know to pull them off relatively safely. If aggressive landings aren't your long term goal, why get a Stiletto?
pull & flare,
lisa
---
On the other hand...you have different fingers

[Jiggs 0]

X228 - F111. Think X-300 but smaller, they can be used for CRW.
Mic, why don't you ask if you can do some jumps on a different main? There are several Sabre 170's floating around at the DZ, also I know of at least a 190 as well. Why not borrow that and get some experience on a 9cell then transition towards the Stilleto?
Either that or swap it for a different main.

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Agreed - demo a few canopies at your DZ and see what you think. Remember that things will go wrong and at some point you will go downwind, land off etc.
When I grow up, I want to be a post whore

[Zoltan 0]

To jump a stiletto with 40-50 jumps in your logbook is not only suicide but it is against the manufacturer's advice. Stiletto manual says that it is built "for extremely experienced skydivers".
Consider to demo same sized Sabre and/or Spectre.

[skymick 0]

Yeah thats what i thought. Unfortunetaly I cant demo other canopies cause ive been jumping rigs with a SOS/ripcord system so I have to do conversion jumps to a two shot/BOC system and they wont allow to do that unless its your own rig.
Oh well guess i better keep looking...thanks for the advice

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

They won't allow it unless it's your own rig? Strange. Any reasons why?
When I grow up, I want to be a post whore

[Jimbo 0]

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and they wont allow to do that unless its your own rig.

What? That's absurd! Go back and make sure that that is the policy. It doesn't make much sense to me. If that is the policy then maybe consider going to a different DZ that will take you through the new procedures and get you signed off to BOC.
-
Jim

[drenaline 0]

What I did for my first rig (the one I own) is to get the cheapest thing on the market, cause its going to be a rig that will last me for who knows 100, 150 jumps? and then going for something a bit smaller.
Cheap stuff: used Dolphin container (20 jumps $350), used reserve (1 jump $350), used spectre (50 jumps, got a good price $900), new kill line pilot chute (with hackey, new cause you can use it with other canopies), new jumpsuit (its new cause it will last almost forever) and a new cypress (don't want to take chances). What to get? well read the gear comments and if you can you should demo (that I couldn't do here, bought it blind folded). Don't spend too much money on your new rig. The less money you spend the more jump tickets you buy.
"Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"
drenaline

[drenaline 0]

What I did for my first rig (the one I own) is to get the cheapest thing on the market, cause its going to be a rig that will last me for who knows 100, 150 jumps? and then going for something a bit smaller.
Cheap stuff: used Dolphin container (20 jumps $350), used reserve (1 jump $350), used spectre (50 jumps, got a good price $900), new kill line pilot chute (with hackey, new cause you can use it with other canopies), new jumpsuit (its new cause it will last almost forever) and a new cypress (don't want to take chances). What to get? well read the gear comments and if you can you should demo (that I couldn't do here, bought it blind folded). Don't spend too much money on your new rig. The less money you spend the more jump tickets you buy.
"Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"
drenaline

[Zoltan 0]

i don't agree fully... to jump good quality gear always means higher safety level as well even if the configuration you mention might be just fine. It is not the price you should look first but the safety and quality.
I would not suggest to buy new and cool jumpsuit since a novice jumper doesn't surely know what sort of jumps he/she will do. FS or FreeFly, FreeStyle or the old school classic jumps... each requires different jumpsuit. So it is waste of money to by an RW suit if the jumper decides after 100 jumps that FS sucks and than goes freefly :)
Also... novice jumpers are rarely great canopy pilots, so it is not the best idea to brake a highend expensive suit just on a bad landing out of the DZ.

[skymick 0]

Well I dont know whether its required to have your own rig to do a conversion course, but they definitely prefer it. I think its because there will be less worries for the student who has just converting to BOC/ two shot if they are not jumping different rigs. All comes down to familiarity with the gear.
Anyway thats my opinion on it.

[AggieDave 6]

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to jump good quality gear always means higher safety level as well even if the configuration you mention might be just fine

I agree with you there, due to my college induced lack of funds, I've been jumping club gear and borrowed gear for a while now, while I've been saving for new gear. Already I've had one main blow up on me and a video of a scary jump where I have a toggle flapping in the breeze, my main pin exposed and bridle flapping in the breeze during a FF jump (which could have very easily ended very badly).
Bottom line: Spend a little extra for something that you know will be a safe kit for you to jump, remember it's only your life.
Aerials
So up high
When you free your lives (the) eternal prize

[billvon 3,078]

>i don't agree fully... to jump good quality gear always means higher safety
>level as well even if the configuration you mention might be just fine. It is
>not the price you should look first but the safety and quality.
Agreed, but for a novice, a used Dolphin is as safe as a brand spankin new Javelin. In some ways it's even safer, since it has been tested. Do not confuse price, style or popularity with safety or quality.
-bill von

[wlie 0]

I'm sure that there'll be jumpers in your DZ who jump conservatively. And their gear might help you transition to smaller canopies. Why don't you ask them if you could demo their stuff in exchange for beer? That way you'll not only try out different canopies, but also harness containers.
Then when you finally decide on the pieces to get, give bytch a call and fork over the $$$.

[hobbes4star 0]

i would get a demo of the stilleto maby a 200 or so. better to try first and buy later than buy now and be sorry. good luck
why jump when you can fly

[skybytch 273]

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i would get a demo of the stilleto maby a 200 or so

You do realize he has less than 50 jumps right? And all of those on all F111 canopies 228 square feet or larger? And you'd still recommend that he demo a Stiletto? Damn.
fyi, the largest Stiletto is 190 sq.ft.
pull & flare,
lisa
---
On the other hand...you have different fingers

[Jiggs 0]

I don't think that such a large stilleto with such a low wingloading would be such a huge problem. Don't get me wrong you can smack in quite badly on ANY canopy, it just that some will take you there that much quicker! Its not like jumping say a 107 where even a fart will take you on a different flight path.
Respect any canopy you jump and don't jump anything your not comfortable with. Okay here is a personal example, after doing a bunch of jumps on a Sabre135, I borrowed another set of gear with a 170 in it, it felt like a truck in comparison. Consequently when it didn't handle as quickly as I had expected and resulted in a not so graceful landing! I didn't give it the respect that it deserved and I could have injured myself.

[AndyMan 7]

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I don't think that such a large stilleto with such a low wingloading would be such a huge problem. Don't get me wrong you can smack in quite badly on ANY canopy, it just that some will take you there that much quicker! Its not like jumping say a 107 where even a fart will take you on a different flight path.

I'm one of the few people on these forums that generally support putting new jumpers under higher performance canopies. I like the principle. There's DZ's using Sabre 2's and Safires, and Hornets quite succesfully as first jump canopies.
In another thread I just encouraged someone who I consider a friend to get a hornet at 1.0, when everyone else is shouting "that's risky!". I'm not one of those who shouts "that's risky", whenever the subject of canopy choice comes up.
I will say that the Stiletto is NOT for very new jumpers. When somebody stands up and says they're looking for recomendations on a first canopy, it's pretty rare that "Stiletto" is the right answer. I was fortuante enough to NOT be at Skydive Chicago last year when a jumper with 75 jumps went in under a stiletto he had rented from ActiveWear - and yes, it was at a reasonable wing-loading.
I think it is possible for jumpers to push the limits in what they jump. I think, arguably, this is exactly what I'm doing with my canopy. All I can say is that this must be done with top-notch one on one canopy instruction. Jumpers MUST be prepared for high performance canopies. Just handing somebody a Stiletto when they ask for a good first jump canopy will hurt them, or worse.
_Am
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[Remster 30]

I'm with the Bytch and Andy on this one...
A stiletto, even at a lowish wingload, is still an agressive canopy. I would not recommend it to someone with 45 jumps, no matter if [insert classic comment] you stand up all your landings[/insert].
They are fun canopies, and I guess nowadays in the middle of the performance range (with the FX VX and Xaos of this world now around) but still IMHO not adequate for that stage of the jumping life...
Remster
Muff 914

[tlshealy 0]

Also keep in mind that high performance canopies can have high performance malfunctions, which could test even experienced jumpers, I think a jumper with less than a hundred jumps under a spinetto, would be severely challenged.
Blue Skies
Tad

[rhino 0]

I think a Triathlon is a good first canopy.. Seven cells are allways better at lower wing loadings. In my opinion. Blue Skies .....

[riggerrob 643]

Andy brought up a good point:
any new canopy should be accompanied by new training. The first jump course did not cover all possible canopy scenarios for three reasons.
First, first jump students can only absorb a limited amount of knowledge in one sitting.
Secondly, they will only grasp some information after they have made a few jumps, ie. the sight picture as they turn onto final approach.
Thirdly, new classes of canopy require new skills. For example, the cure for line twists on a Manta 290 is radically different than the cure for line twists on a tiny Stiletto.
Returning to the original question, the dude who has only jumped X228 canopies so far would be wiser to do a dozen jumps on a Sabre 190 before doing a hundred or more jumps on a Sabre 170, before considering a Stiletto. The point here is to only change one variable at a time. Only move down one size (15 or 20 square feet), or move down one class at a time (ie. 7-cell to 9-cell, square to slightly tapered, slightly tapered to seriously tapered).
If your DZ will not allow you to transition to BOC and two handle emergency procedures, then tell them they have two options: update their rental gear or watch you take your jump dollars elsewhere.

[rhino 0]

Probably shouldn't even be considering a stiletto. Should be thinking more in the Triathlon, Spectre, Omega range.. Those canopies fly slower and promote learning SLOW SPEED FLIGHT handling. Flat turns and such.. I can flat turn under my crossfire109 but not like I could under the Triathlon150.. Seven cell canopies being slower and more stable "in my experience" at lower wing loadings are "safer". Again in my opinion.. I believe it is just smart and safe to start with a non to SLIGHTLY, preferrably non elliptical canopy.
Rhino
Blue Skies .....

[MarkM 0]

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as long as i fly it conservately

Famous last words.