Additional reasons to not jump camera

[mpreil 2]

Sex Ed is a good analogy. There are still a LOT of people who think abstinence only is a good policy. We all know where that leads. The other extreme is equally unacceptable to the vast majority of people; I'm not about to give my kids lessons in how to use condoms and then turn them loose. The right answer is a combination of guidance and education, and access to the right means to help so that breaking the rules doesn't lead to death (AIDS, abortions, or skydivers killing themselves). I wouldn't call this "tacit approval", it's "I really don't approve but I don't want to see you mess up your life when a little advice could help you survive".

By the way, the FAA does not close down DZs, for breaking BSRs, you need to break the FARs, and even then they will fine the owner/operator and ground airplanes but they don't directly close DZs. And your facts on Hollister are badly garbled - you are mixing details from 2 or 3 separate events. Let's keep this discussion polite, as Bill started it, and not get into pointing fingers at specific DZs. I like your general points.

[billvon 2,989]

>The right answer is a combination of guidance and education . . .

Agreed, as long as "when you are ready" is part of the mix.

[PiLFy 3]

PM on the way.

Kids can play w/their other toys anywhere. They can only play w/their GoPros at the DZO's house, in plain view. DZOs set the house rules.

I could swear I read somewhere that the FAA shut down a DZ because they had reached a certain number of fatalities within a certain time frame. If three Newbs bounced wearing cameras at "X" DZ. Would that not bring the FAA down on them?

[PiLFy 3]

Agreed, that goes without saying. DZO's own the house, though. They set the house rules.

[billeisele 130]

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USPA has a recommendation that you should have 200 jumps before you jump with a camera, and that is an excellent recommendation. Skydivers MAY have enough experience at 200 jumps to do camera (although most do not) - but before 200 jumps it's pretty much a guaranteed bad idea.

There are some other indications that it's a bad idea to jump with a camera, and you may want to reconsider your decision to jump one:

1) You can't stand up all your landings but you have learned how to fall to protect the camera.

2) A lot of your videos from doing POV bigway video are of excellent funnels. You are positive you're not contributing to them but they always seem to happen near you.

3) You spend more time trying to figure out where to put your camera during the exit jamup than where to put your body.

4) You can't really remember the dive until you look at your own video.

5) You post stills from your video to Facebook before packing or debriefing.

6) While in the pattern you fly with your camera pointed at your friend's canopy.

If any of these happen to you, you may want to reconsider jumping with a camera - especially when you're not doing video, you're just a participant on the dive.

7) Your video tells all - your track lasts 3 seconds - up the wind line, no wave-off, no air scan just pull, after opening the first thing you do is look up to stow your slider, then look at each toggle while fumbling to insert your fingers, then look down for the DZ, then your alti, etc. - good thing you have that special force field where nothing can hit you up there in the big ole sky

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[JohnRich 4]

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I could swear I read somewhere that the FAA shut down a DZ because they had reached a certain number of fatalities within a certain time frame. If three Newbs bounced wearing cameras at "X" DZ. Would that not bring the FAA down on them?

It doesn't matter how many fatalities a DZ has to the FAA, as long as they're following the FAR's. The FAA can only take such action if FAR's are broken. And then it's usually against a pilot or aircraft, and not the drop zone.

What closes drop zones is the expense of lawsuits, and fatalities can bring those on. But that's civil court action and finances, not federal government edicts.

Sorry for the thread drift. Get back on track now.

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If three Newbs bounced wearing cameras at "X" DZ. Would that not bring the FAA down on them?

The FAA might send an inspector to check things like reserve repacks, but since there is no FAR against anyone wearing a camera, no matter how inexperienced, they have no authority to take any action for that reason.

[DSE 5]

http://vimeo.com/36065919

Two jumpers, 18 or 19 jumps each.
Turned away from boarding at one DZ because they had GoPro's. They went to another DZ.
They both rented rigs. Allegedly they were told the student rigs are not freefly friendly.
One guy wants to get the shot of his buddy, so he backflies it.
At least the main deployed at the correct altitude for a non-licensed jumper.

[Squeak 17]

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http://vimeo.com/36065919

Two jumpers, 18 or 19 jumps each.
Turned away from boarding at one DZ because they had GoPro's. They went to another DZ.
They both rented rigs. Allegedly they were told the student rigs are not freefly friendly.
One guy wants to get the shot of his buddy, so he backflies it.
At least the main deployed at the correct altitude for a non-licensed jumper.

That's awesome, I'm sure that main opening hurt like a MoFo
Stupid should be painful

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[pchapman 279]

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http://vimeo.com/36065919

Awesome indeed, seeing the main canopy split apart like that. That was a plot twist that I didn't expect!

It shows how the stresses on a canopy can be really weird during an out of sequence opening --- although the result was extremely unusual. Maybe the canopy was also older with a weaker center cell.

The reserve was cool too -- one of those nice looking multi-colour Ravens like they used to build, that people might not at first recognize as a reserve. Pretty rare to see one of the old versions with the bikini slider.

That video could almost use a thread of its own.

[councilman24 37]

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http://vimeo.com/36065919

The reserve was cool too -- one of those nice looking multi-colour Ravens like they used to build, that people might not at first recognize as a reserve. Pretty rare to see one of the old versions with the bikini slider.

That video could almost use a thread of its own.

I had to stop several people, or at least try to stop them, from buying matching main and reserves. They would ask why. I'd offer, "What if a canopy opens unexpectedly, malfunctions, and you then pull your cutaway handle. And it happens to be your reserve that opened but you couldn't tell the difference? You just detached your last potentially good canopy." They would go .

I don't see original ravens with bikini sliders because I choose not to pack them anymore. The bikini sliders were an "optional" refit but I wouldn't pack an original Raven without one.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[airtwardo 7]

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http://vimeo.com/36065919

The reserve was cool too -- one of those nice looking multi-colour Ravens like they used to build, that people might not at first recognize as a reserve. Pretty rare to see one of the old versions with the bikini slider.

That video could almost use a thread of its own.

I had to stop several people, or at least try to stop them, from buying matching main and reserves. They would ask why. I'd offer, "What if a canopy opens unexpectedly, malfunctions, and you then pull your cutaway handle. And it happens to be your reserve that opened but you couldn't tell the difference? You just detached your last potentially good canopy." They would go .

I don't see original ravens with bikini sliders because I choose not to pack them anymore. The bikini sliders were an "optional" refit but I wouldn't pack an original Raven without one.

Ya know what...I never thought of that.

ALL my rigs have matching main & reserves....


Doing demonstrations, it there is a malfunction we chop and the Show goes on, usually no one knows the difference.

I'm definitely gonna add a paragraph or two to our team handbook about making sure what's over your head prior to cutting away.


Thanks Terry, see...ya CAN teach an ole dog!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Abedy 0]

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I'm definitely gonna add a paragraph or two to our team handbook about making sure what's over your head prior to cutting away.

'coz it's you: Just add a "paragraph" to the reserve slider simply consisting of "Plan B"

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

[councilman24 37]

Glad to help.

I know you want matching canopies and want the show to go on with a reserve but maybe you need to come up with something to tell them apart. Yes you can figure it out, but do you want to have to look at your harness with a high speed malfunction?

Three suggestions. Different color sliders comes to mind. Still you might not see the slider if it's a bag lock/streamer. Different color toggles. They might be different now but make them distinctive (you can get custom ones made) and make sure everyone KNOWS what they are for each. Maybe even custom/different color main risers. Probably the one thing you can see easiest.

And everyone might want to do identification drills in a hanging harness. Even the best jumpers might get a reserve over their head when they least expect it.

The current manufacturer of a popular pilot rig came to the DZ with a brand new Northern lite in 1981 or so. Both the cutaway and reserve handles were identical soft pillows. Being a smart assed newbie I asked how he could tell them apart. He said he knew which was which. Of course in those days which side was which was NOT standardized. Hmm, I actually have that rig downstairs.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[airtwardo 7]

Three suggestions. Different color sliders comes to mind. Still you might not see the slider if it's a bag lock/streamer. Different color toggles. They might be different now but make them distinctive (you can get custom ones made) and make sure everyone KNOWS what they are for each. Maybe even custom/different color main risers. Probably the one thing you can see easiest.

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Currently all three are in 'play'.

The reserve sliders have the coffee can size hole in the middle, the reserve risers are red with red toggles...main risers are blue with yellow toggles.

BUT as you mentioned, that may not be as obvious under stress as would be say, a single color reserve canopy...Hummm.

Definitely food for thought.

The thing that's got ME scratching my head is we've been having same color combos for almost 30 years...1st time I've been presented with a reason that might not be the best idea...and now it seems obvious.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[DSE 5]

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That video could almost use a thread of its own.

Now that it's derailed to talking about reserves, you're probably right.

Good video, yeah? It's also linked in the small camera incidents thread.

[PiLFy 3]

OK, Thanks.

[CarlBrady 0]

I dont suppose there is a way to get the 200 jump recommendation into an actual BSR? I dont know what goes into USPA making a BSR but could we make it happen?

[davelepka 4]

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Two jumpers, 18 or 19 jumps each.
Turned away from boarding at one DZ because they had GoPro's. They went to another DZ.
They both rented rigs. Allegedly they were told the student rigs are not freefly friendly.
One guy wants to get the shot of his buddy, so he backflies it.

In this case, having zero skill and experience probably helped both of these jumpers. If Mr Backfly was able to stick the transition, and actually stay in his slot (backflying under his buddy) the main would be been in his buddies face.

It is cute how he tries to collapse the reserve slider. It's another example of newbies completely missing the point. Do he really expect to stow the slider? Seeing that he just had an accidental deployment that literally split a canopy in two, is the reserve slider really the first thing on your mind? How about a minunte to shit yourself and think about what just happened?

Not a clue, that one. Not even close.

[Pablo.Moreno 0]

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How about a minute to shit yourself and think about what just happened?

I agree with you on the fact of him trying to stow his slider, but I think you gotta keep your cool while on the air, he can shit his pants all he wants on the ground and re-think about all the stupid things he did, but while in the air there is nothing safer than a clear calm mind, for oneself.

[kd5xb 1]

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http://vimeo.com/36065919

Two jumpers, 18 or 19 jumps each.
Turned away from boarding at one DZ because they had GoPro's. They went to another DZ.
They both rented rigs. Allegedly they were told the student rigs are not freefly friendly.
One guy wants to get the shot of his buddy, so he backflies it.
At least the main deployed at the correct altitude for a non-licensed jumper.

Am I reading this right? Two jumpers, EACH with less than 20 jumps, were allowed to do RW WITH EACH OTHER???

Let me change that to ATTEMPT RW...

I'm a jumper. Even though I don't always have money for jumps, and may not ever own a rig again, I'll always be a jumper.

[NWFlyer 2]

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I dont suppose there is a way to get the 200 jump recommendation into an actual BSR? I dont know what goes into USPA making a BSR but could we make it happen?

It's on the USPA agenda for the meeting in two weeks. You may want to let your regional director know your opinion as soon as possible.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[jimmytavino 16]

if it's going to move in that direction it could be best to make it THREE hundred jumps... no kidding

no denying that our sport is a Visual Paradise !! and that is part of what draws us to it... It is very easy to get caught up in todays world of technology and a now now now approach to just about anything...
The value and importance of a certain amount of delayed gratification has become a lost concept..

How about "amount of time" in the sport?? Does That factor in??

It takes a lot longer to develop aerial AND canopy skills, than folks like to admit..to get to that elusive "2nd Nature" that everyone talks about...in order to "add a camera(s) to the mix " and that's a fact...

For the rare few,, 200 jumps might do it but for most it takes alot longer. I hit it, by about 1,000 jumps and added video around 1,700 hahaha.. Some had fewer jumps. some many more..

i like 300......

jmy
a3914
d12122

[wmw999 2,439]

7) You find that you're having to pull down a lot of the videos that you post on Facebook or Youtube because people are picking on what you did or making fun of it

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,026]

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I could swear I read somewhere that the FAA shut down a DZ because they had reached a certain number of fatalities within a certain time frame. If three Newbs bounced wearing cameras at "X" DZ. Would that not bring the FAA down on them?

It doesn't matter how many fatalities a DZ has to the FAA, as long as they're following the FAR's. The FAA can only take such action if FAR's are broken. And then it's usually against a pilot or aircraft, and not the drop zone.

What closes drop zones is the expense of lawsuits, and fatalities can bring those on. But that's civil court action and finances, not federal government edicts.

Sorry for the thread drift. Get back on track now.

Quote

If three Newbs bounced wearing cameras at "X" DZ. Would that not bring the FAA down on them?

The FAA might send an inspector to check things like reserve repacks, but since there is no FAR against anyone wearing a camera, no matter how inexperienced, they have no authority to take any action for that reason.

The FAA has the catchall FARs Part 91.13 and 105.5 that they could use against the pilot and skydivers when nothing else fits.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[dragon2 2]

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Cause it's freakin cold in Canada right now.

Meh, cold is just between your ears

ciel bleu,
Saskia