Safety equipment for cameras

[PeterLisica 0]

Hello,

We are designing a new type of safety mechanisem and would appreciate your feedback.

on the link below there is survey regarding the use of a safety mechanisem with a GoPro camera among skydivers.
The survey is short and wont take more than 3 minutes of your time.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Greetings,
Aleš Jurjec, Matevž Štern
https://www.1ka.si/a/103449

If you have any questions please feel free to ask.

[DHemer 0]

Since the survey was very limited here are some comments

- the type of mount you can use is highly depended on the helmet you have
- Cookie roller mount design is pretty much ideal for skydiving in my opinion for gopro users but these are expensive and not available for all helmet styles
- most people don't care about camera safety and make no effort to even prevent snags

[PeterLisica 0]

First of all, thank you for your feedback.

-The mount would be compatible with pretty much all helmets.
-I see the problem with the cookie roller mount, as it for the price does not have a cut-away, as no mount is 100% snag free, and also not suitable for all helmets.
-the survey is foremost to see how much camera safety is important to people

[sammielu 3]

My thoughts:
-only people who think about camera safety are going yo take thus survey.
-without defining "safety mechanism", I personally include the possibility that the stock mount will break upon impact as a safety mechanism
-my second safety mechanism is that my helmet has a cit away that cost me $0 that retails for $25
-my primary safety mechanism is my brain. I think about when it's appropriate to jump a camera or not (is the exit an issue, am I on a new canopy and want to increase visibility and decrease my risk by nor wearing a camera), etc

[PeterLisica 0]

I think that most people pass surveys as they just don't want to answer surveys. it's hard to say if only the people who don't think about camera safety pass the survey. I certanly hope that is not the case.

Including the possibility that a stock mount will break when it needs to is not the best idea, as a bolted stock gopro mount will withstand a static force of 80kg+. So you would literaly hang yourself before it breaks.

As for the cut-away helmet. it is a solution, but certanly not the best one. Some helmets are hard to get off your head and well if you cut away you destroy a perfectly good 300$ or more helmet. Not to mention that you're without protection when landing.

[mathrick 2]

Including "No, I use another camera" as a choice in the "Do you use a GoPro camera?" question would be nice.

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[mr2mk1g 10]

Yeah, I took the time to answer the survey when it first went up. As I don't have a go-pro or intend to buy a go-pro however my input is evidently not wanted and the survey showed me the door. Ho-hum.

FWIW, I don't own a go-pro as I think they and the mounts which were available when I went digital were dangerously snaggy so bought a different format camera which I mount inside the box on my FF2, one of the most snag resistant camera helmets available. Sure, the box which used to contain large Sony PC-format cameras is now mostly empty but now I have somewhere to store my alti and gloves.

[riggerrob 643]

First priority: the fewer snag opportunities the better.

Cookie Revolve looks the least likely to snag.
I need to replace my 8-year-old helmet but having a hard time justifying $$$$ for a Cookie. May be I need to compare the cost of a Cookie with the cost of an ambulance ride.

[mathrick 2]

I'm not familiar with anything called Cookie Revolve, did you mean Cookie's roller mount? Also there are many other helmet options than Cookie (I assume you meant Fuel specifically, not G3); Tonfly Performer is one, 2.5x is another, Bonehead makes a range of nice more-or-less camera-oriented helmets.

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[riggerrob 643]

***.... did you mean Cookie's roller mount? .....

[Matevz13 0]

Hello,
It has been quite some time, since we published the survey. We finally developed and tested our product so far, that ve are confident that it works like it should so we published it on the webpage: http://www.soteriaskydiving.com/

We would appreciate any comments and suggestions on the subject.

Greetings,
Matevz

[councilman24 37]

Why in the world do you try to protect the GoPro from snagging lines with something that looks a whole lot like a coat hook? Tangles are rarely neat and vertical. Expect or to hook things from any angle. Itr doesn't mater that a line oulled straight up slides off. Pull a line or bridle sideways and see what happens. Make the damn base wider than the go pro so that things tend to slide off instead of hang up. And make the gaps as small as possible. THEN your cutaway system would need to work much less often.

When I was making a custom video mount with a hack saw, file and drill I made sure there were NO corners that something could get caught under from any direction. With something the size of a film slr, 1980's video camera and a newton ring sight you could be perfect but better than this. Sorry to be so blunt but there was another guy a few months ago who just couldn't understand it should wide at the helmet and taper around the camera.

Btw darken the text and lighten the photos. Very hard to read some of tbe text against the dense photos.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[sundevil777 102]

Matevz13

Hello,
It has been quite some time, since we published the survey. We finally developed and tested our product so far, that ve are confident that it works like it should so we published it on the webpage: http://www.soteriaskydiving.com/

We would appreciate any comments and suggestions on the subject.

Greetings,
Matevz

It looks like it is designed to create a snag hazard.

It looks like the release wire would be inside the helmet.

How does it release from an overload?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[obelixtim 150]

Think again.

That looks dangerous. Not suitable for skydiving. Did you actually think about it, or ask any experienced camera flyers for advice?

I've seen lines catch on things a lot less snaggy than that.

No way would I be happy with anyone jumping that on any DZ I was responsible for.

Are you or your buddy even skydivers? Your profiles don't indicate so. And your previous comments regarding why it won't break, or losing your helmet, indicate to me you don't understand why that might be a good thing.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[Matevz13 0]

councilman24

Why in the world do you try to protect the GoPro from snagging lines with something that looks a whole lot like a coat hook? Tangles are rarely neat and vertical. Expect or to hook things from any angle. Itr doesn't mater that a line oulled straight up slides off. Pull a line or bridle sideways and see what happens. Make the damn base wider than the go pro so that things tend to slide off instead of hang up. And make the gaps as small as possible. THEN your cutaway system would need to work much less often.

When I was making a custom video mount with a hack saw, file and drill I made sure there were NO corners that something could get caught under from any direction. With something the size of a film slr, 1980's video camera and a newton ring sight you could be perfect but better than this. Sorry to be so blunt but there was another guy a few months ago who just couldn't understand it should wide at the helmet and taper around the camera.

Btw darken the text and lighten the photos. Very hard to read some of tbe text against the dense photos.

Hello,
at firs I would like to say that we rally are thankful for the comment, since more people always know more.
I must say, that the mount on the pictures is prototype, that was made to fit all different models of GoPros and was meant for testing mechanical specifications. As we said the mount is still developing and will be available at the end of February.
We have already minimised the gap between the mount and GoPro to 0,1 mm and made mount wider, so it is wider than the camera.
I will post some pictures as soon as possible.

Greetings

[Matevz13 0]

Quote

It looks like it is designed to create a snag hazard.

It looks like the release wire would be inside the helmet.

How does it release from an overload?

Hello,
as I explained in previous reply the design on the pictures isn't final and design is already changed so it doesn't have any gaps between camera and mount.

Yes release wire is inside the helmet - between helmet and padding.

Release mechanism is designed so that the pins holding the wire are the weakest members of the structure and they break when you put enough load on them.

[Matevz13 0]

obelixtim

Think again.

That looks dangerous. Not suitable for skydiving. Did you actually think about it, or ask any experienced camera flyers for advice?

I've seen lines catch on things a lot less snaggy than that.

No way would I be happy with anyone jumping that on any DZ I was responsible for.

Are you or your buddy even skydivers? Your profiles don't indicate so. And your previous comments regarding why it won't break, or losing your helmet, indicate to me you don't understand why that might be a good thing.

Hello,
could you please explain why you think it is dangerous and not suitable for skydiving?
And yes since we are not very experienced skydivers (we both are skydivers) we have been working with much more experienced skydivers. We also know that design as it is on the pictures isn't ideal and we have already changed it as explained in previous replays.

Greetings

[councilman24 37]

Take your mount and hang it on a wall sideways. Now hang your bath robe on it. If it stays its wrong. If it was wider at the helmet instead of the camera then your robe would fall off. Or do it this way. Wrap a bridle around it 360 degrees and see if it comes off cleanly. If your mount looked like a cone instead if a funnel it would. As it is I expect if you don't allow the helmet to rotate you can pull on it until your pins fail. Also the gaps between the camer and the mount should be a small as possible, ideally smaller than a line. Snags can come from all directions.

IF it was wider on the bottom it would be harder to fit to the curve of multiple helmets. An idea I thought of was varying flexible gaskets to fit between the mount and helmet.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[mr2mk1g 10]

That almost looks worse than the stock mount.

Try hanging 800lb (a light guy with gear pulling just 4 G) from the mount and see if those pins lock the cutaway cable from being able to release. Then try it with 1600lb.

[Matevz13 0]

mr2mk1g

That almost looks worse than the stock mount.

Try hanging 800lb (a light guy with gear pulling just 4 G) from the mount and see if those pins lock the cutaway cable from being able to release. Then try it with 1600lb.

Hello,
pins are designed that they will brake from overload at 77lbs (that is the upper limit). When mount is exposed to force of 70lbs force required to pull out the cable is 20lbs. We have tested thise deferente scenarios quite alot.

Greetings

[Matevz13 0]

councilman24

Take your mount and hang it on a wall sideways. Now hang your bath robe on it. If it stays its wrong. If it was wider at the helmet instead of the camera then your robe would fall off. Or do it this way. Wrap a bridle around it 360 degrees and see if it comes off cleanly. If your mount looked like a cone instead if a funnel it would. As it is I expect if you don't allow the helmet to rotate you can pull on it until your pins fail. Also the gaps between the camer and the mount should be a small as possible, ideally smaller than a line. Snags can come from all directions.

IF it was wider on the bottom it would be harder to fit to the curve of multiple helmets. An idea I thought of was varying flexible gaskets to fit between the mount and helmet.

At firs thank you for constructive criticism.
We will try test you described first thing, when we will get new prototypes and will post photos of it.
Base of mount is already wider than camera for 13mm. Do you think that is not enough?
We are already putting thin layer of rubber between mount and helmet for better fit.

Greetings

[councilman24 37]

I'd suggest taking down the photos on the current link. Sounds like your current design is a lot different from the current photos. The current ones are hurting your reputation as you can tell from the feedback.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[obelixtim 150]

Matevz13

*** Think again.

That looks dangerous. Not suitable for skydiving. Did you actually think about it, or ask any experienced camera flyers for advice?

I've seen lines catch on things a lot less snaggy than that.

No way would I be happy with anyone jumping that on any DZ I was responsible for.

Are you or your buddy even skydivers? Your profiles don't indicate so. And your previous comments regarding why it won't break, or losing your helmet, indicate to me you don't understand why that might be a good thing.

Hello,
could you please explain why you think it is dangerous and not suitable for skydiving?
And yes since we are not very experienced skydivers (we both are skydivers) we have been working with much more experienced skydivers. We also know that design as it is on the pictures isn't ideal and we have already changed it as explained in previous replays.

Greetings

As Terry says, post the new pictures then.

Any gap is too big. Even 1 mm will snag a line.

I've seen a fatality where a line got caught under a grommet on a closing flap, which you would think was impossible.

If your mount is used, it WILL happen sooner or later. The outcome might not be fatal, but in the chain of events leading to fatalities, that is a good place to start.

Snagged lines are an excellent way to start a double entanglement of main and reserve, or a reserve entanglement, if cutaway from a spinning malfunction. No one wants to go there.

If I wanted to increase the chance of dying on a skydive, I would wear your mount as pictured.

I have lost count of the number of jumpers who have approached me with a new bright idea, or who I have stopped getting into the plane because they are wearing or carrying something that will kill them if things go wrong.

And you have to assume that things will go wrong at some point. Because it will.

Murphys law. (Murphy loves skydivers)

It is obvious that enthusiasm has blinded them to some of the potential flaws in their idea, and when some of these are pointed out to them they suddenly realise this is not a good idea at all. "Oh.......never thought of THAT" is the usual response.

Having investigated several skydive fatalities, I can tell you it is not something that is enjoyable or something I wish to repeat.

A lot of "new" ideas have been tried before, and discarded, because they have proven dangerous. The wheel doesn't need reinventing. I've done enough demos and test jumps to know that you have to think of everything And that is not easy.

The point about things breaking, is in some situations, that might be the only way to get rid of a problem.

Do not over engineer something to the point where it makes it impossible to get rid of. Would you rather lose your $300 helmet, or your life?

Because that might be the only choice you have.

Skydiving can kill you even if you do everything right.

Never forget that.

Terry suggested attaching your mount to a wall and hanging your coat on it. I would leave it there.

Sorry to be a kill joy, but don't be put off, skydiving has made progress because crazy ideas sometimes turn to gold. Your motives are honourable. I'm sure you'll get it right.

I commend you for coming onto the forum and asking for opinions and ideas, many would not do that, or ignore the advice.

Keep working on it.....we need thinkers and innovators.

Good luck.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[the.Legend 55]

Apart from what being said above, two more things popped out to my mind:

1) Scenario where you did release the camera, while it snagged the main, you still have pretty good hook between camera and Mount (see attached. Blue line is Main, Red is reserve)

2) Your design assumes drilling holes in helmets. Not only this undermines helmets integrity, it is also very impractical. I had few attempts before I managed to attach camera to be focused _perfectly_ straight. Thankfully, M3 glue base could be easily detached with the help of hairdryer if mistake is made. Drilled holes however are not. And not every skydiver is good with drills either.
Oh, and not every helmet has lining detachable. If you rip it off, you have to glue it back somehow, and again, not everyone will have tools for that (hot glue gun for example)

three things actually: case of headbang with other skydiver: those screws (even if made of plastic) could somehow damage the skull, or at seriously least increase the risk of loosing consciousness. 200+ lbs of meat'n'bones impacting at even 60 mph is not a joke. IIRC even this year a person lost a limb during high-speed impact with other skydiver.

Take all the things into account and good luck with your design ;)


P.S. After writing this post found another flaw: springs. I know they are detachable but still they are flying hooks of steel. And regardless of how improbable that might be, once spring catches the lines there's no way for it to be released until you land reach the ground. How improbable? That improbable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-rltgVgGtM

Just replace them with rubber or glue them to the bottom and make short enough not to stick out

[Pobrause 6]

I don't think you understood, how the cutaway system works.
The whole mount detaches so point 1) is bs

Secondly, if you can't drill holes get a more capable friend to do it for you. Every DZ I know has the proper tools for this job. Also I've yet to see a helmet break apart because of two small holes, infact, many factory mounts even require them.
So bs number 2)

If you headbang with a 200lbs meat missile you have other problems than two small sticks reaching only about 2mm inside your helmet, that by design can't get pushed further inside by an impact.
So your skull penetrating meat missile propelled screw point is bs as well.

Lastly your spring hook of death scenario is not only unlikely but, you might have already guessed it: bs number 4. If you need to use the cutaway option the mount will have snatched on sth already, whatever it may be. Leaving with the mount I'd highly doubt that even the sticks on top of the springs will come out on their own. And even if, what are they going to catch your whole camera hasn't already?

Quote

Take all the things into account and good luck with your design ;)

So in all due respect, don't do that at all, dear opening poster and listen to those that actually know what they are talking about. There have already been a few in this thread.

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To absent friends