shah269 0 #26 July 9, 2012 I have it anything but figured out! If i had it figured out 100% of my landings would be perfect stand up landings 5ft away from the packing mat and I would loose 0ft when making flat turns. I'm just learning. So rear riser landings are a no go? But aren't they a part of getting you B now?Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 801 #27 July 9, 2012 Here I was thinking you had made your very first decent, logical post. If you seriously think that landing 5ft away from the packing mat is a perfect landing...shouldn't you be bowling? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #28 July 9, 2012 Quote If you seriously think that landing 5ft away from the packing mat is a perfect landing...shouldn't you be bowling? 5ft away, one knee down, singing...yeah style points But i'll be honest rears feel more "odd" than fronts due to the amazing ammount of energy they seem to put into the system. Using rears up high i'm always amazed at how powerful a change such a little defelection can produce! But then again on my wing, fronts take lots of energy to get anythign out. I have to just about hang off the fronts to get any speed while the backs a simple pull...wow! That said should rears be pulled down or pushed appart? If pushed appart....how the hell do you do that? I've tried and i really can't get much out of them.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mik 2 #29 July 9, 2012 QuoteQuoteI'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left. How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe? There is no reason to practice or perform rear riser landings. A friend of mine had a toggle come off below cut way altitude, She had been on a canopy control course where rear riser landings were taught. She landed (with PLF) just fine. According to her, she was very pleased to have had the opportunity to practice rear riser landings so she could perform them when required ... *********************************************** I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-ftp- 0 #30 July 9, 2012 hey #2, I have a question for you. What would happen if DZ.com was shut down? Could you skydive anymore? Where would you go for help? Or have you pissed off ALL the knowledgeable at your DZ and are stuck resorting to the fucking internet for answers? I am just curious why you seem to be so against asking for help in person? You post these cockamamie things on here for what? To get a rise? I mean seriously, they aren't to get help for real are they? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #31 July 9, 2012 My home DZ lost our S&T a few weeks ago to a better job offer. I was going to ask him this very question before he helft just forgot thus why i'm asking here. Sorry for asking.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #32 July 9, 2012 QuoteQuoteI'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left. How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe? There is no reason to practice or perform rear riser landings. Broke a steering line on opening, landed on rears rather than cut away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #33 July 9, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteI'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left. How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe? There is no reason to practice or perform rear riser landings. A friend of mine had a toggle come off below cut way altitude, She had been on a canopy control course where rear riser landings were taught. She landed (with PLF) just fine. According to her, she was very pleased to have had the opportunity to practice rear riser landings so she could perform them when required ... Good for her. Odd though. Teaching rear riser landings is a fairly new thing, yet we've had squares for more than 30 years without a single incident that I know of where someone was badly injured or killed because a toggle fell off. Of course if a toggle just fell off, maybe she should be a bit more focused on maintenance and inspection. Or does she know how to do that?Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #34 July 9, 2012 QuoteBroke a steering line on opening, landed on rears rather than cut away. Sounds like a good reason to practice rear riser landings so you can perform one. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #35 July 9, 2012 Quote Quote Quote I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left. How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe? There is no reason to practice or perform rear riser landings. Broke a steering line on opening, landed on rears rather than cut away. I have too - twice, on an Excalibur. Landed both on rears without ever having practiced it. Well technically I had practiced once when it happened the second time. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-ftp- 0 #36 July 9, 2012 QuoteMy home DZ lost our S&T a few weeks ago to a better job offer. I was going to ask him this very question before he helft just forgot thus why i'm asking here. Sorry for asking. Appology accepted. So the S&T is the only person that speaks English at your DZ? Is that what you're saying? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #37 July 9, 2012 Quote yet we've had squares for more than 30 years without a single incident that I know of where someone was badly injured or killed because a toggle fell off. I know of at least two people who have smashed femurs from a toggle coming off the steering line, and I am not that well connected in skydiving. I am not saying that rears would have saved either one from the titanium club, but I do know that toggles have come off resulting in injury. ETA: landing on rears is also in BillVon's downsizing checklist, and lots of people recommend exploring all aspects of a canopy's envelope before downsizing - I think this is a relevant skill to learn (with proper instruction). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #38 July 9, 2012 Quote But i'll be honest rears feel more "odd" than fronts due to the amazing ammount of energy they seem to put into the system. Rears do not put energy into the system (unless perhaps you are talking about potential energy due to planing out), whereas fronts increase kinetic energy. Yet again, I have to say stop fucking jumping until you have the very basics of canopy flight explained to you by someone who knows what they are talking about. In fact, I suggest you sit through an AFF ground school. And listen. If you turn out to be a troll, I will hunt you down and blow up your bridge! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #39 July 9, 2012 Shah, Haven't you learned by now that most these DZ.com bozos are not going to take you seriously and really try to help you out? They are going to twist everything you say into something you didn't mean and then hammer you for it...along with the smart-assed comments like Kallend's who is totally unwilling to help anybody, anytime. You DID get a couple of good posts answering your question but then the idiotic "let's-get-shah" shit started and you see what happened. Don't feed the trolls. It would be best, IMO, if you could find a good mentor willing to assist and only talk to him through PM.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 479 #40 July 10, 2012 Quote Quote Quote I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left. How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe? There is no reason to practice or perform rear riser landings. Broke a steering line on opening, landed on rears rather than cut away. Chris, someone up thread mentioned an undercurrent jumper with low jump numbers may be better off cutting away. Obviously gear maintenance counts, because you don't want the toggle to fall off at 300 foot. I am curious about it, as I'd rather not land on rears. Hopefully I'll get some good education in 2 weeks time when I get crw coachingExperienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 479 #41 July 10, 2012 QuoteShah, Haven't you learned by now that most these DZ.com bozos are not going to take you seriously and really try to help you out? They are going to twist everything you say into something you didn't mean and then hammer you for it...along with the smart-assed comments like Kallend's who is totally unwilling to help anybody, anytime. You DID get a couple of good posts answering your question but then the idiotic "let's-get-shah" shit started and you see what happened. Don't feed the trolls. It would be best, IMO, if you could find a good mentor willing to assist and only talk to him through PM. I hope you're right Andy. You're probably the only instructor left on dz.com prepared to treat Shah seriously, I hope he takes the opportunity to learn from youExperienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 801 #42 July 10, 2012 Interesting perspective. I saw it that Shah did indeed ask a very nice serious question. He started receiving some nice answers. He then became Shah again. Here we are. I would completely concur your advice IS spot on Andy. Except for the PM part. I would recommend some time sitting at the DZ chatting with the old jumpers. It's really amazing what you can learn sitting around chatting with people. Having those decrepit old instructors around is pretty nice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencebuster 7 #43 July 10, 2012 I don't pretend to be an expert canopy pilot. I have been hurt twice on bad landings. As for rear riser landings, I'll say this . . . At 150 jumps I had a hard opening on a Spectre and, without much rear riser practice since the student progression, I did some rear riser flares quickly and decided to land on rears. Worked out OK. About 400 jumps later, I had a steering line knot around the guide ring on the riser and could not clear it. I decided that since I could not land it as Bill Booth designed it, I would cut away. Stand up Reserve landing. If it happened to me today, I'd cut away. Trust the equipment on a mal. Last year I was trying to sink into a baseball field and stalled my canopy and had an exceptionally hard landing -- I stalled the canopy in deep brakes, recovered in a dive and managed to flare full rear risers just before impact. I am walking, so I do believe in rears, but I consider them an emergency procedure that I would not use if I did not need to use them.Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208 AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #44 July 10, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left. How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe? There is no reason to practice or perform rear riser landings. Broke a steering line on opening, landed on rears rather than cut away. Chris, someone up thread mentioned an undercurrent jumper with low jump numbers may be better off cutting away. Obviously gear maintenance counts, because you don't want the toggle to fall off at 300 foot. I am curious about it, as I'd rather not land on rears. Hopefully I'll get some good education in 2 weeks time when I get crw coaching That is a personal choice. I subscribe to the philosophy of never trade a land-able canopy for an unknown. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWPoul 1 #45 July 10, 2012 It's a good idea to know your canopy learn to fly and land it in all possible ways Yep it's even more good idea to learn it via face-to-face training with coach or experienced flyer Regarding landing on rears - besides all said advices IMO it's good to start from just plain out on rears with trasit to the toggles and when you became used to plain out and flying along the surface on rears landing will be quite easy step further (and even if you screw it/stall it - it will be not a big deal)Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fearjoburg 0 #46 July 10, 2012 QuoteA friend of mine had a toggle come off below cut way altitude, She had been on a canopy control course where rear riser landings were taught. She landed (with PLF) just fine. According to her, she was very pleased to have had the opportunity to practice rear riser landings so she could perform them when required ... I just want to know - in the event that a toggle come off what do you do with the other toggle? Do you stow it or just let it go? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #47 July 10, 2012 Quote I just want to know - in the event that a toggle come off what do you do with the other toggle? Do you stow it or just let it go? Let it go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #48 July 10, 2012 QuoteShah, Haven't you learned by now that most these DZ.com bozos are not going to take you seriously and really try to help you out? They are going to twist everything you say into something you didn't mean and then hammer you for it...along with the smart-assed comments like Kallend's who is totally unwilling to help anybody, anytime. You DID get a couple of good posts answering your question but then the idiotic "let's-get-shah" shit started and you see what happened. Don't feed the trolls. It would be best, IMO, if you could find a good mentor willing to assist and only talk to him through PM. Thank you. When it comes to stuff like this I'm 100% a student. Sadly I think my utilization of verbs may be off when describing what I'm feeling and seeing. So I try my best not to say much and just listen. Again thank you. When I get back to the DZ i'll ask some of the guys with thousands of jumps what they suggest.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnSherman 1 #49 July 10, 2012 Jumpers considering this thread must realize that all canopies are not the same. Rear riser input will cause a different response in one canopy from another. This is dependant upon trim or angle of attack. Flat trimmed canopies which glude well will probably stall and drop out of the air quicker than "Lawn Darts" which are already dropping out of the air quickly. KNOW YOUR CANOPY Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 49 #50 July 10, 2012 Rear risers are good. Broke a brake line? You still have a canopy that is controllable, square, and stable. Learn to love rear risers and be comfortable landing on them. A reserve is nice if its needed, but its an unknown and they can fail. I'll take my main with a broken brake line any day...even on my velo 84 (but i've practiced and i'm comfortable with it).Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
