Yoshi 0 #1 July 23, 2002 I jumped the jediei this weekend...120 @ 1.85 wing load and it was sweet. riser pressure was a dream very very soft... the opening were not very desireable though.. (Im probably about 1/2 an inch shorter after 5 jumps...anyways the angle of attack was very steep, the turns were very fast, and it dove more than the crossfire... my brother (jaybird) packed once for me and it snivled very nicely...(of all people to pack a nice opening it was the guy with the broken back anyways just thought I would comment it flew like a dream (and swooped like a champ) but the openings were hard and unpredictable (could have been my packing though...) it also just had a new line set...I was told it opened much better once it was a little out of trim...anyways yoshi-_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #2 July 23, 2002 Not to be a CN or anything, but you're jumping a 1.85 wingloading with 250 jumps? People think I'm being aggressive going to 1.4 with 350 jumps, and I swoop a lot and am at a swooper's dropzone.In any event, as far as openings go, the other thing I'd recommend is to avoid the rear risers on opening. I've found the Jedei likes to "hunt" for a heading, so I just let it do it's thing. The rear risers have serious oversteer, and I just made problems worse when doing rear riser inputs during the opening sequence.As far as hard openings go, I pushed the nose into the pack job, and then folded the end cells into the pack job as well. Pull the slider out (naturally) & make sure the slider grommets are aligned square. That seemed to tame it pretty well for me. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stacy 0 #3 July 23, 2002 my jedei has a pocketed slider on it, and I've never had any harsh openings. I also just had mine relined by bigair and thought the opening was better than when it was out of trim. opens right on heading now and even seems less twitchy. I'm loading this main at about 1.3. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #4 July 24, 2002 I hope your jump numbers are out dated. I was very aggressive under canopy (almost maimed myself at 220 jumps at 1.5) at Zennie's Dz (spaceland rocks). not my business, but there are better canopies to load that high..and you shouldn't be jumping them anyway at that loading. jeeze, get a bigger crossfire or cobalt. a friend of mine died at a lower wingloading than that and with more than twice the jumps, you think your speed racer??? disclaimer... you jump it once then you go back and pratice on other shit....I forgive you...ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #5 July 24, 2002 well although it may be a pretty fast move for some..my first canopy was a 149 crossfire with exit weight at ~200. I do fly safe, but I also love the speed and the swoop. thank you for your concern, but I think it is not only the jump numbers, but the comfort level flying high performance canopies...by all means I dont think anyone with little experience should hop on a higher wingloaded high performance canopy, but that is what I learned on (after graduating of course)..the student gear were mantas and raiders, and I think there was a sharp shooter in there somewhere... but anyways my canopy now is a 149 crossfire (exit weight about 210-215) and after speaking with a few s&ta's at my dz (which have seen me fly and land) I am personally ready to move to something smaller. (like I said as my disclaimer) I am not by any means saying that anyone should progress as I do or that just anyone should fly high performance canopies even with 1000's of jumps...they aren't made for everyone, but they are made for me. ...ohh and no the numbers are close I am in the 250's with jumps... -yoshi jump barefoot...swoop long..swoop hard...leave a bloody trail_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #6 July 24, 2002 this one did have a pocketed slider on it also, ohh well.. was definately fun to fly though. -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #7 July 24, 2002 Your first canopy was a crossfire loaded at 1.34 (based on your numbers). you have gained wt and now load at 1.44. if you are 215 lbs out the door 139 loads at 1.55 135 loads at 1.59 120 loads at 1.79. I understand that you may be really heads up and your S&TA may have a lot of confidence in you. I don't recommend downsizing to a 120 especially an older ground hungry canopy loaded at close to max wing loading. I know jumpers will do what they want (like I did, although I listened to everything I was told..when I am told I am turning low I go back to the drawing board). If you have your heart set on downsizing don't make such a big jump, why not just drop 10 ft and do it on a better canopy. remember...the waythings are going we will continue to see lots of incidents from low turns (intentional low ones) until dropzones up the ante and begin some sort of self regulation. be careful... .might I recommend a vengeance or a cobalt, they both have light riser pressure and fly big peace ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #8 July 24, 2002 Quotemight I recommend a vengeance or a cobalt, they both have light riser pressure and fly big And the Vengeance dives way better than the Jedei. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #9 July 24, 2002 actually I am not buying the jediei I was just having some fun flying it.. I am nost likely going to get a 119 crossfire...I flew the 120 cobalt and was not impressed. I tried the samuri last year at Richmond "THE" Boogie, but I havnt flew it enough to really decide if I like it. I have yet to fly the vengance, but I plan to soon.. as far as going down in size 10 ft or so...well its just not a big enough jump for me, but like I said before I do appreciate and understand your concern. anyways whatever I get I want to fly it at its optimal wing loading. and performance is the key... SWOOP! Im a Ninja_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #10 July 24, 2002 I psycho pack mine and have great openings!"Slow down! You are too young to be moving that fast!" Old Man Crawfish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #11 July 25, 2002 ok, well in "yoshi's" defense, he can fly his canopy well enough to down size, i will have to agree, maybe going to a 120 is a bit much kevin, maybe a 130 demo for a while then to a 120, but you seem to be ok under the jedi 120 though. just as long as you don't get stupid under is (well at least for a couple hundred more jumps) then you should be fine. so lets not go down on someone so bad when you haven't even seen them fly the canopy. jumps #'s don't mean jack shit, if you have the experience. if you max out a canopy and are getting board, then it's time to down size, weather or not you have 250 jumps, or 5000 jumps. it all depends on if you max the canopy out, then you down size(if you want of coarse). but i think sometimes people say things like "you don't have enough jumps to fly at that wing loading" or "that's way too small for your jumps" before they even see them fly the canopy, so maybe they say that because there jealous???? maybe they couldn't fly there canopy worth crap when they had that many jumps, so they think no one else should. but that's just my opinion, and opinions are like assholes, everyone has em, and they all stinkblue sky's and long swoops kelly "hook low, flare late.............dirt, tumble, dirt..........ouch" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #12 July 25, 2002 Quoteso maybe they say that because there jealous???? Um... no. It's more like they've been to too many funerals and visited too many friends in hospital rooms, all because someone thought they were good enough to fly a hot rod at 100, 200, 300 jumps. Sorry, but at that experience level, NO ONE has seen or experienced all the shit that can happen. And shit happens a lot quicker at 1.8 than it does at 1.5. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #13 July 25, 2002 >if you max out a canopy and are getting board, then it's time to down size, weather or not you have 250 jumps, or 5000 jumps The test is in when is a canopy maxed out. Most people never come close to using the full flight envelope on thier canopies and I'm of the belief that until you learn all about it you don't need to go smaller. A Stiletto loaded at about 1.4 just placed in one of the Para-performance games. You don't have to load a canopy a lot to swoop it long. Its more technique then it is canopy on a swoop. Downsizing to get a longer swoop should only come into your mind after you master all the carves, sinks, flat turns, rear riser landings (non-hp and HP) and anything else that can be thrown at you. I've seen canopies loaded at 1.4 out swoop canopies at 1.8. And the larger canopy was flown a lot safre then the small one. Grab one of the factory pilots and ask their opinions on wing loading and I think you'll be surprized a lot. BigAir recommend 1.3 at 300-500 jumps due to the small amount of canopy time a pilot has at that time. >jumps #'s don't mean jack shit, Actually they do... If you've only landed a canopy 250 times... thats not many at all. How many different conditions have you really been exposed to? Increasing the wing loading is very similar to a pilot getting a bigger plane at the same number of hours. How many pilots are getting into a Pitts at 250 hours? >so maybe they say that because there jealous???? I could care less about who jumps what.. I'm just sick of seeing jumpers with tiny canopies, low jumps and big egos pound in and get hurt...Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #14 July 25, 2002 all i'm saying is that is you can fly a canopy, and if you have 250 jumps, and you fly it like you have 1000, then if you want to go smaller, go for it!! if you get board with a canopy, when you have 250 jumps you start to get stupid with it, or at least some people do, you start to get ballsy, and hooking lower. so if this guy, that i know can fly his canopy fine, wants to go smaller, and not hook, then i would rather see him do that, than getting stupid under his 149. blue sky's and long swoops kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #15 July 25, 2002 for the love of god....this is where the flawed logic starts. We are actually getting to read the thought processes behind it now. OMG. I don't believe there's any doubt that a 250 jump individual can land the smaller canopy straight in. most people here could land a 46 if they needed to...straight in. I'm not saying it'd be pretty, but it's do-able. what happens when there's a knee-jerk twitch of the toggle/rear riser with the higher loaded wing...like someone flying into your space or having to put that thing down in a parking lot between cars or having the toggle slip? Egos, overconfidence and mistakes kill. There are at least 2 in this equation as it sits right now. Add another one to the list. I just sincerely hope that your first critical mistake on that canopy isn't your last. blues, arlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #16 July 25, 2002 Quotebut i think sometimes people say things like "you don't have enough jumps to fly at that wing loading" or "that's way too small for your jumps" before they even see them fly the canopy, so maybe they say that because there jealous???? maybe they couldn't fly there canopy worth crap when they had that many jumps, so they think no one else should. but that's just my opinion, and opinions are like assholes, everyone has em, and they all stink Skygod , You are an instructor and you repeated what I suggested. My only point was that skipping a size is an additional risk when already being extremely aggressive. @1.8 it is really hard to not get injured when you have to turn low to avoid an unseen item. And jump numbers come in to play when making quick decisions. Now I have known at least one pilot that became a jumper and downsized like crazy (velocity at 200 jumps) and now has 1000 jumps. He never got so much as dirty, but he was already an accomplished pilot (100s of flying hours before skydiving) and understood flight much to the chagrin of all the local jumpers that rode his ass. The only people I am jealous of two of my friends, Eric Butts (top 10 PPB) and Josh Hill (came in 1st and 2nd recent PPB), and they both know when to take an out. peace ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #17 July 25, 2002 Quotebut i think sometimes people say things like "you don't have enough jumps to fly at that wing loading" or "that's way too small for your jumps" before they even see them fly the canopy, so maybe they say that because there jealous???? Have you ever seen somebody die? I mean watched as somebody hooked too low, hit, and felt that sense of sorrow that even though medivac is on the way, it probably isn't going to help? Have you ever been standing in the middle of the landing area, and heard the sound of someone impacting 10 feet away? Well I have. It happened about four weeks ago, that sound has resonated in my head ever since. If you hang around this sport long enough, you'll see some pretty ugly things. What's different now then in the past, is that these ugly things are happening under perfectly good parachutes. People are screwing themselves up simply because of pilot error. The guy that hit 10 feet from me, he a pretty good canonpy pilot. Despite this, he was still in double fronts when he hit. The explanation, was that he thought someone was in his way, and brain locked instead of avoiding them. He's lucky, he'll live. He's got a broken back and a torn aeorta to deal with, though. I personally know a lot of the people that are telling you to reconsider. I know what their motivation is too, it's because they've already been to too many funerals, and seen too many broken backs, too many people FUCKED UP because they thought they could handle something, and when something small went wrong (like a guy standing in their way on the landing field), they did the COMPLETELY WRONG THING, and biffed in. I have no doubt you can land this canopy, hell, I have no doubt you could land a hell of a lot smaller canopy. I think I could too. What I don't believe, is that when something goes wrong, when you find yourself low, or with an obstacle, or with something just non-standard, that you'll be able to react properly in time to deal with it. If, and when that happens, I hope I'm not around to see it. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #18 July 25, 2002 Sure there's some give & take as far as what's considered aggressive & what isn't. And a lot of it depends on the learning curve of the flier. So I agree that you shouldn't just place a hard jump number requirement on a wingloading. There's no formula. Still, an unreasonably agressive wingloading is sort of like pornography... I know it when I see it. Going to 1.85 with only 250 jumps is overly agressive IMHO. There is no possible way a person can learn everything about the flight characteristics of a canopy in 250 jumps (unless you have Jim Slaton's experience). Like others have said... can you land it in optimal conditions? Probably. But what about all the non-optimal situations? Crosswind? Downwind? Landing off in a tight spot? Landing off downwind in a tight spot? Avoiding unforseen obstacles.. like the noobie that cuts you off? What if you miscalculate your setup for a swoop? Take a look at J.C. Coclasure's canopy progression. Do you honestly believe he went so slowly because he didn't have the skills to be a good canopy pilot? Or was it perhaps that he was being patient, methodical and totally mastering a canopy before he downsized? A very, very experienced swooper broke his ankle with an off-landing under a canopy with a > 2 wingloading. Shit happens, and it happens a lot faster under higher wingloadings. The margin for error approaches 0. Would I like to take a VX or a Velocity 90 (which is what I would need to fly to be at 1.83) for a test spin? Yeah. And I could probably land the thing. Would people think I (or anyone else of my size and with my jump numbers) was absolutely nuts to try it? Absolutely. And they would be right. Part of keeping yourself (and others) alive in this sport is knowing your limitations. Because, remember, you're not just a risk to yourself, you're a risk to others in the air, and on the ground, as well. Would I like to go on freefly big ways? Yeah. Do I have the experience to do it? No. And I admit it. Am I working on getting those skills? Yep. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #19 July 25, 2002 geez..didnt think this would bring out all the CN's anyways like I sid before I know my limitations..I have biffed in on my 149 (and I am pretty lucky might I add that I walked away from that one) I know where the end of my limits are and I stay away from it. sure I like to swoop and occasionally I do get a little more radical in my turns, but I dont have to dig out and I know where everyone else is in the air and I have all of my outs scouted before hadn. if any of you have jumped at richmond,in you will understand unless you are trying to hit the hanger, power lines, or a car you have an out in every direction.. ond for the love of god dont think that on a 20 mile an hour day I am doing 90 270's just because its a smaller canopy. just because it is a smaller canopy doesnt mean I fly it nor try to fly it to its potential...I am simply building my skill under a faster beast. I know the complications..I know the dangers, but if the right steps are taken.....doing carvers on a smaller canopy is much better than hooking a larger one. regardless what is said on this forum is pertinent. there is that concern for people flying higher performance canopies. I think that is a good thing to keep most in check...but remember when jumping a square was considered too dangerous. times are moving on as well as pilots progressions with canopies..all we can do as askydivers is merge with the newer generations (including myself) and dont critisize poeple when they make their own choices, yet help them to learn on thier level.. -kevin_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #20 July 25, 2002 just thought that I would add..I dont jsut go out and jump the 120's after a few weeks of no jumping.. I always jump my 149 first on the day that I demo something to see what is going on in the air..and I am pretty current with my jumps.. I dont take 3 weeks off then hop on a smaller canopy.. jsut thought I would add that for the CN's approval -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #21 July 25, 2002 Quote geez..didnt think this would bring out all the CN's OK everybody. Mark this day down. I, of all people, have been called a CN. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud9 0 #22 July 25, 2002 Ok I'm not trying to cause even more controversy but I keep hearing/reading when someone is down sizing the question can you land in a tight area? So my question is can any one under a small heavily loaded canopy land in a tight area? I mean your going to surf x ft no matter what, and if you have to come in down wind even worse. So is this a ligitimate question? I don't fly a heavily loaded canopy so I admit I may be off on this. But I just can't see someone sinking a VX 79 into a parking lot between cars and shutting it down. Are people out there really that good? Even one of the events at a swoop meet was hitting a target in the water, and almost no one was able to do that, especially without chowing in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #23 July 25, 2002 Quotedoing carvers on a smaller canopy is much better than hooking a larger one. Why? I seem to recall that one can carve a larger canopy as well. I'm curious too, how many jumps do you have? Over there in the Freeflying forum you said this: QuoteI started to freefly in my coach dives. I did the static line progression and now out of 150 jumps I have about 10 belly jumps. it seems to have worked for me this way... i think either way you go is good.. if you learn to freefly first it will help you with belly and vise versa. but definately keep the groups to 2 or 3 people if you learn to freefly 1st. it will make the learning curve alot quicker, and it will be much safer until you lear to fly your body with more obsticles in the air. be safe and have fun! -yoshi Is it 150 or 250? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #24 July 25, 2002 me too"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #25 July 25, 2002 Yes.. I've seen a Velocity come striaght in and it only got about 10 foot of swoop and he shut it down right on the disc. It was loaded at about 1.8 ish I'd guess. The pilot knew the canopy well enough that he COULD sit it down where ever he wanted to. John LeBlanc was telling me that he used to do clear and pulls at the DZ and fly home at the end of the day. He was explaining his yard and the lack of outs and he explained how he landed his velocity there all the time. At the swoop meet you also had to swoop it in, then stand it up on a raft, tons of people hit the raft, only one stood it up. There are lots of people that have their Pro rating on canopies above 1.6. Mike Ortiz won last years Sport Accuracy with 3 standups with a total distance of under a meter target on his Stiletto 97. It can be done.... it just takes skill and practice on larger canopies then progressivly down sizing once you learn the skills on each canopy. On any canopy you can kill the forward speed pretty effectivly in flight if you know what you are doing and the approach pattern you need to make to hit the target. It just takes practice to find it and its a whole lot harder to find on a heavly loaded canopy.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
