Yoshi 0 #26 July 25, 2002 yeah its 250 I hit the wrong key.. also: the first time I jumped the 119 crossfire on a demo I did land off. skygod had a cutaway and I followed him down to make sure he was ok.. ( he was) and it is not hard at all to shut down a 119 within about 10-15 feet or so...simply pump the flare destroy the airfoil (which I have a habit of doing on swoops anywyas) and taadaaaa no swoop.. laters kevin_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #27 July 25, 2002 Yoshi/Kevin: i've been lurking this posts, and kept my mouth shut until now. you've recieved some great advice, from some of the best (i know most of them, do you?) i told a very good friend of mine the same thing these experienced canopy pilots are telling you, he didn't listen. may he RIP. he hooked in low early this year. i once told him i'd be reading about him in the "fatalaties page" i still feel bad for that, because exactly what i told him, harrened. don't "be that guy" to one of your friends. listen to what these people are telling you. until you've buried 2 of your friends in 1 year beacause of this you wouln't know how i feel. Zennie is an aggressive canopy pilot, i've seen him fly, BUT he listens to advice from learned colleagues, if he wasn't listening, he'd more than likely be flying that VX-90 right now. regardless of what you've been told, jump number DO MEAN SHIT, really MEAN SHIT. whatever your decision, be careful, be safe, and take care. P.S. Zennie, you can be CN # 139, OK? --Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #28 July 25, 2002 Quote How many pilots are getting into a Pitts at 250 hours? Dude, that has to be one of the best analogies I have seen yet. Oh yeah - remember some are destined to exist simply to serve as a warning to others *shrug* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #29 July 25, 2002 Hey Kevin, how many pro swoopers went from a student canopy to a Crossfire 149 to something in th 120 range with only 250 jumps? Go check out some of the gold medalists' bio's at PD and Icarus' website. Did you know that according to Icarus, you're overloading the 119 at 2.25psf? It's so amazing to see the same pattern in over-aggressive people every single year. Most of the time, they're in it for the testicle contest of who's got the smallest canopy, regardless of whether or not they can fly it. I'll bet you we've got people who will out-swoop you on 1.2-1.4 wingloadings... why? Because they know their wing and have spent more jumps than you have exploring how to get it to do whatever they want it to. Why downsize when you can't possibly know the full performance envelope of what you've got? Good luck, I know you're probably the exception to all the rules. I hope so.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #30 July 25, 2002 Quoteif he wasn't listening, he'd more than likely be flying that VX-90 right now Heh. There's a fine line between being aggressive & being reckless. I like to think I know where that line is and don't cross it. Others may disagree of course. QuoteZennie, you can be CN # 139, OK Heh, I'll have to add that to my sig. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #31 July 25, 2002 QuoteSo my question is can any one under a small heavily loaded canopy land in a tight area? Not only can you, but you should. If you can't, there's some people who'd say you shouldn't be flying your current canopy. At the very least, you shouldn't even consider downsizing until you can: a: land downwind b: land crosswind c: hit a small target, ten times in a row. d: (debatably) land on rear risers. plus a few others. where's billvon when we need him? Personaly, I refuse to apply for my 'd' licence even though I have twice the jump numbers, until I can hit the 10 foot target on my stiletto at 1.6, 10 times in a row. I'm getting close. Before I screwed up my ankle I got to 8 in a row. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #32 July 25, 2002 QuoteGood luck, I know you're probably the exception to all the rules. I hope so. to respond to trent, and zennie: let's remember some people don't need parachute rigs, hell, they've got red capes, and a great big ol' "S" on their shirts! hey guys, at some point and time we have to relent, OR keep letting these guys kill thereselves. it's a shame they can't see through the "testerone level" of this sport, and live an extended life. personally, i'm glad that i entered the sport at age 40, had i entered it at 18-19, i can almost assure you i wouldn't be here now, hell, the fast cars almost done me in. Trent, keep it up, your CN # is 140. Zennie, i just pulled that off of the top of my head, but you are so dubbed! CN # 139! remember, lisa quit, so someone has to take the heat, migh as well be you 2 guys! all B.S. aside, i think i'll demo that VX-90 myself soon, that'll be at 2.94 wing, ah, what the hell? no stretch, i've got 300+ jumps, and a C license! *being faceceous*...sp? everybody have fun this weekend! --Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #33 July 26, 2002 ok heres the deal.. only one of the people that has posted on here has actually seen me fly. I DO UNDERSTAND where you all are coming from and this is not some kind of pissing match. I could really give two shits about who flies a smaller canopy or who can get a longer swoop. when it comes to what I fly it is how comfortable I am with it and how I progress not about anyone else and their progression or mistakes on jumping on something too small for them. This is about me. I dont care that someone else waited until they had 5000 jumps until they hit 2.0 wing loading I dont care if someone else does it in 100 jumps. I do land crosswind occasionally just for fun..hell... on light wind days I even take it down wind (permitting everyone else has already landed and I wont be cutting anyone off) landing in a small area: this is something we do from time to time ass well "shoot the peas for a buck?" ok so this is what it boils down to. some people that some of us or all of us know have died because of certain mistakes under canopy. some of us have seen it within 10 feet..and someof us have simply read about it in the incident reports, but this does not mean that everyone who has a very fast learning curve (which is not what I intended this post to be about in the first place) (nor am I bragging or trying to say I have bigger ball because I can progress faster than some with more jumps) should stand back and not let themselves progress as they want to. The freedom of this sport is why i got into in the first place. There are so many genres to explore, so many things to learn and so many beautiful sites to see. not to mention some of the best friends that I have met at the DZ. please just get off my back about the canopy I choose to fly. it is my choice, and although others have said "I know what I am ready for, and I know what I can fly" once again it is not about them. the people who have seen me fly (including several s@ta's at my dz) are the ones that I really take strong advise from. they are the ones who have helped me to progress as fast as I have (as well as others at my dz) and I will continue to use them to help me hone my skills as a canopy pilot. I am not a blundering idiot...I am educated and I do understand the risks involved with flying a higher performance canopy. Its not like I was on a manta 288 and the next day I went to a 119 crossfire. I had a progression of canopies that I flew...I just went through the progression faster than most. ok so there it is and if you want to post more about how someone else made a mistake or how I shouldnt fly what I shoul then go for it, but ultimately it is not going to change anything. if you want to comment on the jediei or flying characteristics or style I am all ears. I am always interested in learning more, but the fact that this forum is turning into a beat down session on no other than myself is starting to piss me off.. I do appreciate the comments thus far though.. thanks kevin_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #34 July 26, 2002 One question... if you're not looking to swoop longer, or who flies the smallest canopy... why the downsizing?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #35 July 26, 2002 You're still overloading a Crossfire 119. Not a great idea according to some Icarus reps and the company itself.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #36 July 26, 2002 I am looking to swoop longer.. I simply was stating I dont care if someone under a 1.4 load can out swoop me... its not a balls to the wall contest..I dont compete.. I also love the flight characteristics of the smaller canopy. not only the swoop....but from the opening to touchdown. and BTW the msw for a 119 is over what I load it. if I were to fly a 109 then I would be right at the maximum for the canopy (as far as the manufacturers recommondation)...and I have had several hours of conversation with Simon Mundell of icarus canopies (who has been in direct contact with one of the S&TA's at my DZ..who knows how I fly) like I said I am not an idiot, I am simply on a different curve than perhaps the majority?also when downsizing I do keep the reserve in mind...I fly with a 150 dash m right now, but when I get my next rig rather than going for the most asthetically pleasing rig (120 main 120 reserve) I am opting to get the voodoo that holds a 120 main and a 135 reserve. I think its the V-1. "The inspirations in life are derrived not only from the path which we take, but also the challenges in which we overcome."_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #37 July 26, 2002 QuoteI also love the flight characteristics of the smaller canopy. not only the swoop....but from the opening to touchdown. it's not the opening you have to worry about, it's that "touchdown" Quote"The inspirations in life are derrived not only from the path which we take, but also the challenges in which we overcome." ok, let's assume your einstein's nephew, and you are "above average intelligence levels" (which i'm sure you are, generally 98% of sky divers are in love with thereselves, and are convinced theyre smarter than the average bear) no one here is busting your chops because they think your ignorant, or belong in the corner with a dunce cap on your head. just about everyone i've seen respond here has already seen 1, if not more of theyre friends die under a good canopy. when you can make that claim, then get after it. your thinking only of yourself, why not think about the people you "could" leave behind to mourn your loss, even the people that responded to you here, hell, they don't even know you, but they care, as do i. in any event, do as you please, be safe, take care, and good luck.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #38 July 26, 2002 Quotelanding in a small area: this is something we do from time to time ass well "shoot the peas for a buck?" Accuracy and landing in a small area are two entirely different things. If you can hit the peas 10 out of 10 times in a large field that's great, that still doesn't tell me you can set it down in someone's back yard. There is a difference, I'm afraid it's a hell of a difference too. Quoteok so this is what it boils down to. some people that some of us or all of us know have died because of certain mistakes under canopy. some of us have seen it within 10 feet..and someof us have simply read about it in the incident reports, I'm guessing, by this statement, that you've been the one to read about it in the incident reports. I think once you've seen it, up close (too close) and personal you might change your tune, then again, maybe not. Quoteplease just get off my back about the canopy I choose to fly. it is my choice, and although others have said "I know what I am ready for, and I know what I can fly" once again it is not about them. the people who have seen me fly (including several s@ta's at my dz) are the ones that I really take strong advise from. So, you take advice from the S&TAs at your DZ, that's nice. Just for kicks, why not take some advice from the folks at the Evolution canopy school. Head on out there with your 149 _and_ your 119, see which one those guys think you're ready to fly. If you come back here and tell us that Jim Slayton personally told you you should be flying the 119, that you're just that Goddamn good then I'm sure everyone here will stop busting your balls. Stay safe.... - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #39 July 27, 2002 Quoteplease just get off my back about the canopy I choose to fly. it is my choice, and although others have said "I know what I am ready for, and I know what I can fly" once again it is not about them You know you're flying a wingloading that the majority of jumpers at your experience level can't land safely 100% of the time. You know you're flying a wingloading that others of your general experience level who did just what you did/do have seriously injured or killed themselves with. If you're going to post your jump numbers and wingloading on a public forum, you have to expect that people will comment on it. If you don't want to hear/read comments on what you are doing, don't post it. Simple. QuoteI am always interested in learning more, but the fact that this forum is turning into a beat down session on no other than myself is starting to piss me off.. No one is trying to beat you down. It's very possible they might be trying to save your life. If what you are reading here pisses you off, close the thread and don't come back to it. Again, simple. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #40 July 28, 2002 hey guys, maybe we should just let him go.. After all, it doesn't matter what everyone else has done... he's smart, he knows what he's doing, "That'll never happen to me", right yoshi? We do our best learning through mistakes, right? In skydiving it's very important to learn from OTHER people's mistakes, so that you don't have to pay the price that they did for that knowlege. Remember, those of us who forget the past are destined to repeat it. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #41 July 28, 2002 Yoshi, I urge you to think about all of this stuff, but know that it's umtimately your choice. I sincerely hope you prove us all wrong and die of old age. Just remeber, plenty of very good canopy pilots have gotten hurt, and the knew a lot more about handling shitty situations than you. And that's what this is all about. We know you can handle the canopy on a day-to-day basis.. but shit DOES eventually happen. How will you handle that? Hopefully you live through it -- more fabric above your head can often help. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #42 July 28, 2002 Also.... who don't you care that so-and-so can out-swoop you on a bigger, more lightly loaded canopy? THAT is proof-positive that you don't know all that there is to know about your canopy, and that you don't NEED a smaller canopy to get longer swoops (which you say is what you want). It sounds like you're just being lazy. You don't want to take the care to learn the nuances of your current canopy to make it so what you want. Furthermore if you believe that you need to start hooking low to get better swoops("doing carvers on a smaller canopy is much better than hooking a larger on"), then you REALLY don't know as much as you think you do. /rant what the hell is CN, anyway? Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #43 July 28, 2002 >when it comes to what I fly it is how comfortable I am with it and >how I progress . . . No, it's about your skill level under canopy. Could you land your previous canopy crosswind, no wind, uphill and downhill? Can you land in a small area? Can you flare turn 90 degrees and flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet? Can you land in rear risers? Can you accurately judge turbulence distances and wingtip vortices? Can you do no contact CRW with your canopy? If you can do all that, you are probably ready to downsize. If not, you should work on canopy skills more before downsizing. > just went through the progression faster than most. Just so you know, 95% of the skydivers in the sport think exactly the same thing - their greater proficiency allows them to move more rapidly through the progression safely. 90% of them are wrong. The really lucky ones learn they are not as good as they think they are, and scale back before they get hurt. The lucky ones get a minor to medium injury (broken femur, broken back) and learn that way. The unlucky ones die. I am sure you read the incident reports, and see the people who die under canopies when they turn too low or react poorly to problems. You should know that every single one of them thought they were ahead of the curve, and used words almost exactly like yours. They had the skill, they learn fast, they are confident under their new canopy, yadda yadda yadda. One such person posted something like that here just before they died under a new smaller canoy. > if you want to post more about how someone else made a mistake > or how I shouldnt fly what I shoul then go for it, but ultimately it is > not going to change anything. That is unfortunate. I think in skydiving it is very much worth it to learn from other's mistakes, since the lesson is all too often fatal. At your canopy loading you will not get a second chance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #44 July 28, 2002 >where's billvon when we need him? Idaho, driving back from Lost Prairie. Due to the miracle of modern technology (and rhe girlfriend doing most of the driving) I'm trying to catch up enroute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dove 0 #45 July 28, 2002 Quotewhat the hell is CN, anyway? CN = Canopy Nazi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #46 July 28, 2002 Hey, Dove! How's by you? Just between us girls, have you ever seen another sport wherein guys compete between each other about being small? Ciels and Pinks- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dove 0 #47 July 28, 2002 QuoteJust between us girls, have you ever seen another sport wherein guys compete between each other about being small? Not only small but fast! Hey - where are all the big guys that take their time?!?!?!?! hehehe! That's hilarious Michele! Thanks for the giggle. dove Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #48 July 28, 2002 "where are all the big guys that take their time?!?!?!?!" *Raises hand* I fly a Manta 288, have been jumping almost a year now and still don't have my A. That slow and big enough for ya?I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
