Pullout Pros & Cons

[NathanL100 0]

Alright, I hope I'm not posting a post thats already been debated 100 times, but I couldn't find too much useful info when I did a forum search. So I'm curious what are the pros and cons of a pullout? A horseshoe or a PC in tow are my most feared mals. They looks really secure to me, but I'm curious what all you experts think. The reason why I ask is b/c I'm buying new gear and I'm thinking of changing over.

Base # 942
The race is long and in the end, its only with yourself.

[freeflir29 0]

I don't think a pull out will make a P/C in tow any more or less likely. However the incidence of totals due to improper bridal routing or misplaced pud is more likely. I have known SEVERAL people that have had them. Heard about many more. I think it does REDUCE the likelyhood of a premature deployment but it's at the cost of improving the chances for a total. So, it's just like anything else. A trade off. Both systems work very well if they are maintained and packed properly. I do remember an article where they tested the Pin pull force. A P/C can generate about 80lbs of pull on the pin. IIRC ALL the jumpers that tried couldn't even come close to that.

[NathanL100 0]

Quote

I don't think a pull out will make a P/C in tow any more or less likely

I could be wrong, but I thought that you physically pull the pin and then the PC inflates and pulls the d-bag from the container. So how could that produce a PC in tow?

Base # 942
The race is long and in the end, its only with yourself.

[skymedic 0]

Because even if it is inside when you pull it you could still forget to cock your pilot chute...

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[NathanL100 0]

I didn't think of that, but that's bad mojo on a pullout or a BOC. I was thinking more of a inflated PC in tow mal. Thanks

Base # 942
The race is long and in the end, its only with yourself.

[Bruno 0]

The big pro in throw out is that you can place the PC in clean air stream. With pull out, you open the main container and immediately release the pc, very close to your turbulence (imagine the situation if you are wearing a big or video wing suit ). the big con in pull out is that you can easily lose the handle, resulting in a total mal
Remember 90% of reserve ride for openings mals is with pull out systems.
Use correct PC and correct packing and you NEVER find your self in pc in tow mal with throw out.
Bruno

[zyzko 0]

And pull-out is a definitive no-no for wingsuit-jumps so if you are planning to try skyflying in the near future, get a throw-out.

-Kari

[JDBoston 0]

I jump a pull-out and I like it just fine. IMHO, the amount of force you generate pulling the pin manually vs. a pilot chute pulling it is just not very relevant. I have a hard time imagining a situation where the bridle is clear all the way from the pud to the pin, not hung up on anything, you have a firm grasp on the pud, and you just can't pull the pin because you can't put enough power into it. If that's the case, I doubt you could extract a pilot chute from a BOC pouch either.

The possibility of a floating pud total is definitely there, but depending on the design of your rig (re: position of the flaps and routing of the bridle), you may be able to fix it easily without even having to get your hands on the pud again. I know because I had that specific "malfunction" on my 2nd jump on my rig.

I was wearing leather gloves for the cold, and I dropped the pud right after getting it unseated. I groped around for about 4 seconds and then went silver, but on the ground, one of the other guys who jumps a pull-out showed me the two places I should be able to locate the bridle on my rig (a Racer) even if I drop the pud. I just hadn't taken the time to have that 5 minute conversation with someone before I jumped it, which was a $50 mistake on my part.

The way it's set up, there's one place you can ALWAYS find the bridle: coming out from under the exact middle of the top flap, between the walrus teeth. You can just hook the loop of it with your thumb right there and pull the pin. Or hook it and then follow the bridle out to the pud if that makes you happier.

So basically, it has its pluses and minuses like everything else, but like everything else, the better you understand it and the more you learn about your emergency procedures, the safer you'll be.

Personally, I like having the PC inside with everything else so there's no danger of it slipping out prematurely. I like having a shorter bridle outside the pin to snag on stuff. I like reducing my odds of having a horseshoe. I like feeling the pin pull. But that's me.

Joe

[nicknitro71 0]

What about the Wings freefly handle? IMO it's the best of two worlds.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[faulknerwn 38]

I've got 4 rigs - 3 of which are throwout and 1 of which is pullout. In my opinion the pullout is definitely the superior system. The only thiing you have to watch out for is having other people pack it - if you do - ALWAYS check your gear - all the misrouted stuff I've ever seen on pull-outs was done by packers.

Being able to pull your pin yourself ensures you get the pc into the airstream. I like having the pc hidden - more protection for it. A floating pud is no longer an issue on the modern designs of rigs - that was more of an issue 20 years ago. All of the ones I've seen (mirage, Javelin, Racer) even if the pud comes loose, its TRIVIAL to find and pull. The modern designs are also more secure than the old rigs.

I don't mind jumping BOC - for various reasons I have 3 throw-outs and one pullout and I'm not die-hard enough about one method or the other to switch the rigs. I know you can get a more consistent deployment on the pullout - fewer pc hesitations and such. That's why almost all good competition CRW teams use pullouts.

And as far as releasing your pc into turbulance, I've dumped my throwout onto my back occasionally during the years, just as I've done my pullouts. It was a lazy throw in all cases.

With correct packing, you will never find yourself having a total on a pullout systems. Just be very careful about checking your gear if a packer packs it because they don't always know what they're doing.

W

[dterrick 0]

***Remember 90% of reserve ride for openings mals is with pull out systems.***

...but it also may be that somewhere around 90 percent of rigs have pullouts vs. puds. It's amazing how you can make numbers say anything

Havng burbled once on a pullout, ultimately resulting in a cutaway, I still use a BOC. Our DZO jumps a PUD but only makes gear suggestions on a case by case basis, and it would mostly revolve around freeflying etc, where a premature deployment would be extra-bad - -

...and now you've opened the 'which container ' debate

Blue Skies

Dave

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[NathanL100 0]

So, let me see if I've got this right.
Cons:
Floating PUD (which is debetable)
Hard Pull (which can happen on a BOC or PUD)
Mis-Routing (which is possible on all systems)
PC doesn't always get clean air (again is possible on a BOC too)
Pros:
Less chance of a Premature
Less chance of a horseshoe

So both systems are fine when used correctly

Base # 942
The race is long and in the end, its only with yourself.

[riggerrob 643]

I am biased towards throw outs. After 3800 jumps on throw outs and only a handful of jumps on pull-outs, I will stick with my BOC throw-out thank you.
Part of the reason I wear a throw-out is leading by example. All the first timers and freefall students wear BOC at my DZ, so it is easier to teach gear checks if my gear is similar to theirs.
My attitude originated back when I first started dispatching students. I was wearing a Strato-Star with my pilotchute on my belly band. They wore military surplus gear and made me feel like a horrid hypocrit.
I hate hypocrits with a passion!
Nowadays I always try to steer junior jumpers towards BOC on their first rig. But if they want to buy their second rig with a pull-out, it is their call. Statisically, the more of them who jump pull-outs, the more reserves I get paid to repack!

[billvon 2,989]

>So I'm curious what are the pros and cons of a pullout?

In my mind, it's a question of which mal you'd prefer. Throwouts tend towards PC-in-tows; pullouts tend towards totals. It's pretty minor though; you are still many times more likely to have a lineover than a deployment system problem on either system.

In a pullout especially, make sure you get a well designed system. Wendy above claimed that getting a floating pud on her system is trivial but I am simply not flexible enough to do that if my pud were floating, attached only by the lanyard. Avoid systems with velcro and/or loose pockets.

Generally:

Pullouts result in slightly more bulk inside your container (the PC+bridle)

Pullouts are harder to check to make sure your PC is cocked and bridle is routed correctly

If you are going to forget to cock your PC, a pullout gives you a better chance of an opening

Pullouts give you slightly more protection against accidental bumps and knocks

Pullouts are just unfamiliar enough that getting pin checks is more difficult

[faulknerwn 38]

Quote

>
In a pullout especially, make sure you get a well designed system. Wendy above claimed that getting a floating pud on her system is trivial but I am simply not flexible enough to do that if my pud were floating, attached only by the lanyard. Avoid systems with velcro and/or loose pockets

Can you not reach your main pin to do a check on your own gear? A floating pull-out on older style Javelins had a bit longer of a line. The ones I've seen on Reflexes and new Javelins, would leave the pud most likely still floating by the corner of your container. On a Racer, my floating pud floats right by the bottom right corner of the container - i.e. if you reach back to where it should be, it hits you right in the hand.

So I've never seen a floating pud get even so far away as to where the pin is located - and most of us are flexible to reach back to where our main pin is to feel it.

Perhaps some older used gear would have this problem, but I haven't seen it on rigs manufactured in the last 5 years or so anyway.

W

[VectorBoy 0]

Almost all of the very experienced Free fly guys (Flyboyz and whats left of the teams at Elsinore)use a pullout, so do the team extreme canopy guys. Its mostly about not haveing a premature PC out.
Although I heard JC discribe it as an out of sequence deployment with your container open without your PC fully inflated at full bridle stretch. Its all about how you will use your gear. When do you want the most protection?.Glen

[PhreeZone 20]

>Its all about how you will use your gear

Actually... its all about what Mal you would rather have.. a PC in tow/Horseshoe or a floating Pud.

The Wings Freefly Pud with Codura pockets makes a lot of the issues go away except horseshoe. If you order it with a retractible pin all the issues are just horseshoe at that point pretty much.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[NathanL100 0]

Quote

When do you want the most protection?.

All the time.

A horseshoe is probably the one malfunction I'm most scaired of. I'm hardcore into freeflying and I'd hate to have a horseshoe b/c my bridle snaked its way out and pulled the pin I'd rather have a floating PUD and a total than a whole bunch of shit bouncing around on my back with the potential of my cypres firing my reserve into it.

So I think I'm going to go with the pullout, but does Mirage do a pullout?? I can't seem to find anything about a pullout on their web site.

Base # 942
The race is long and in the end, its only with yourself.

[Bruno 0]

Quote

***Remember 90% of reserve ride for openings mals is with pull out systems.***

...but it also may be that somewhere around 90 percent of rigs have pullouts vs. puds. It's amazing how you can make numbers say anything
***

Dave
I don't know in USA, but in Europe Throw-out is the most common system.
Sangiro could place a poll on that subject.
Bruno

• Quote

[billvon 2,989]

>Can you not reach your main pin to do a check on your own gear?

In the plane I can, but then I can wedge the bottom of the rig against the seat and twist. I can't in freefall (I've tried) because a) the rig floats away from me a bit b) it tends to want to avoid my hand and c) I'm just not that flexible in that respect.

[fudd 0]

Quote

I don't know in USA, but in Europe Throw-out is the most common system.
Sangiro could place a poll on that subject.
Bruno

In Norway pull-out systems has been forbidden since 1986. There must be a reason for it, and probably it's security. However, I've never seen a pull-out system so I really don't know to much about them.
A poll about this would be fun.
Note, as a foreign jumper visiting Norway. You are of course allowed to jump with your pull-out system.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Vectorboy stated earlier that the great majority of Freefly people as well as Team Extreme use pull outs because of additional protection. Actually, I will contend that the reason they do it is purely for aesthetics and a "follow the leader" mentality. Nowadays, I don't care what some naysayers will tell you, both modern BOC and modern pull-out offer equally safe protection in any freefall orientation. The "real" difference is in the fact that your rig looks an inch and a half shorter if you have a pull-out, and we all know that the smaller the rig, the cooler you must be...

For the record: I jump BOC on all my rigs. I briefly toyed with the idea of converting to pull-out (strictly for vanity), but changed my mind after seeing two buddies do it for the same reason, only to change back within two weeks.

Chuck

[Zennie 0]

Max Cohn jumps a BOC.

I think the bigger issue here is bridle protection. I know that RW and Mirage both manufacture BOC systems that have the bridle protection of a PUD. When Max showed us his rig at first I thought it was a PUD. The handle looked like a PUD handle an there was no bridle showing anywhere. It was completely concealed. Sort of a hybrid PUD/BOC, which others here have mentioned and which I think is a good compromise.

I'll probably get a system like that for my next rig. My biggest concern is bridle protection. I'm comfortable with a throwout system and most everyone knows how to pack them. I usually pack for myself, but if I'm on a really short call I'll have someone pack for me. I've seen several packers sort of scratch their heads when presented with a PUD system. beyond the possibility of making a mistake, the odds of me getting packed in time are greater if I use a system that practically everyone is familiar with.

Plus if I ever fly a birdman suit, I don't need a different rig.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[skymedic 0]

My rig is a Wings BOC with Pud....I love it.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....