Para Commander jump

[Bruno 0]

Erno
Not only for the holes (also really rounds have holes for steering and little speed), the apex of Para Commander, papillon, UT-15, olympic etc. (in Italy we call them "calotte rientranti"), is pulled down by a rope running from the apex to the risers, this give the canopy a particular shape to generate a small amount of lift, not like a square but some (typically 2/3rd drag 1/3rd lift). In Italy till '85 you must have at least 30 jump with a "calotta rientrante" canopy before cleared to use a square.
Bruno

[ernokaikkonen 0]

Ok thanks! I didn't know that.

[markbaur 0]

Quote

The Para Commander ... has a valuable forward speed (compared with a round) that you must stop for landing.
So the correct technique for landing is to pull down both toggle, or rear riser, similar to square.

I have a bunch of PC jumps, and I stood up most of them without using toggle or riser flare. Pulling down toggles or risers does reduce the forward speed, allowing a more vertical descent -- a good accuracy technique if you arrive at the target a little high and with extra speed (typical for hard-core accuracy competitors making downwind landings) and are willing to accept a higher descent rate.

Mark

[Bruno 0]

Mark
You are right
but, with a PC in no wind condition is better to use toggle to land, not like a square, timing is more critical for a soft landing. You can also stall a PC.
Forward speed is no comparable to a square (5 to 7 m/s) and vetical speed is very low, compared to a square in full flight so in windy condition you don't need to use toggle because you don't need to slow down vertical (is slow enough) or forward speed (wind do it). Accuracy with PC where made only downwind (horrible to see).
Bruno

[nicknitro71 0]

Do you know if the UT15 is still in production? If not do you know where I could buy one used. I got a hard time finding a PC.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[howardwhite 6]

"The famous Russian UT-15 which was actualy better then PC "

Yup, at least for accuracy, and Pioneer copied it as the Russian PC. I have a couple of T shirts that have a picture of it, with "Parakommandr" in Cyrillic. I think I still have a UT-15 manual in Russian.

HW

[steve1 5]

I remember shooting some accuracy in competition with a para-commander. I know the best accuracy jumpers did accurracy with down wind landings. I never had guts enough to try it though. Landings were hard enough against the wind. I always tried to come into the wind and even hooked it in at times to try to hit the peas. Needless to say I didn't do well at this event and limped away from a few landings. I do remember the Russian Para-Comanders but most everyone I knew were buying the Mark-1's. When I was a newbie to the sport a friend and I bought an early version of the para-commander. It looked very similiar and we thought we had just bought a para-commander. I can't remember what it was called but it was a piece of crap and we unloaded it in a hurry. I think it was manufactured in the 60's. I still marvel at how much better square canopies are. What an improvement! But I'd still like to jump a round again. Some of my fondest memories are of back in the days of gutter gear. Steve1

[howardwhite 6]

"I bought an early version of the para-commander."

I don't know what that might be. The PC obviously went through improvements after its introduction in (I think) 1962, but I don't think even an early PC would meet your description.

Are you maybe thinking of a Crossbow?

HW

[jbrasher 1]

Paradactyl from the mid-late 70's

Red, White and Blue Skies,

John T. Brasher D-5166

[jaymundo 0]

The pc was a great high performance canopy in the early seventies.I have about 200 on one.rear riser and let em upslow on touchdown.The paradactyl was scary to me but jumped one for a while.You cant turn fast with them and were terrible in turbs.My PC had at least thirty tape patches over holes.

[Kirils 1]

I jumped that Russian PC copy in 1974. They called it something that sounded like "yakamanahept"...
By today's standards the openings would be considered very hard, but compared to the T-10's it was a dream. It had 1-1/2 shot Capewells and we used a bellywart reserve. And you are correct it was a better canopy than the PC and also the French PC copy called the Papillon. They were beautiful to see in flight.

"Slow down! You are too young
to be moving that fast!"

Old Man Crawfish

[steve1 5]

Howard,
I think it was a Crossbow. That name really rings a bell. We didn't have it long. Everyone told us to get rid of it and that we had just been took for buying it, so we never even jumped it. Maybe it would have been okay, but we took for granted that it wasn't a very good canopy. Have you ever jumped one? Steve1

[steve1 5]

Jaymundo.
My paracommander also had rip stop tape over ten or fifteen holes. The old f1-11 material often would burn and melt into a hole on opening. I most always packed neatly but still ended up with some burn marks and holes. I'm sure this fabric was a lot different than the material everyone calls f1-11 today. Steve1

[Zoltan 0]

I think you can buy from any ex-comunist country for reasonable low price. I will ask my friends if it is really in production still or what could be the youngest. I will inform you here.


other...

there were comments about landing PC downwind and-or frontwind.... According to my knowledge you land all the round canopies in downwind. It is more accure and since the forward speed of these birds are not so high then it is not a problem...

blue skies,

z

[steve1 5]

Zolton,
I know for accuracy competition most experts landed a paracommander down wind. If you missed the peas, it was no fun. I was no expert so I knew better than try accuracy down wind. I had some friends who tried down wind landings on para-commanders. I remember watching some terrible wrecks when they missed the peas. A paracommander did have a fair amount of forward speed and if you took this plus the wind speed it meant for a very hard landing on bare ground. Pea gravel helped a lot. I think the forward speed on a para-comander was rated at around 15 MPH. Putting on the brakes helped some, but there was still a lot of speed if you were going with the wind. (not to mention your vertical descent rate). When I first started jumping you had to have around 25 jumps on a 28 foot round or t-10 before you could even jump a para-commander at our club. I know this seems ridiculous because they aren't very high performance by today's standards. I think a 28 foot canopy with a 7-TU mod. had around 7 or 8 MPH forward speed. I know the really hot canopy in the 70's was the para-plane. It was one of the first square canopies. I jumped it a couple times back then. The scary part was hoping it would open. The one we jumped would malfunction on a regular basis. Steve1

[d16842 0]

Quote

VERN wrote: Cool man , i've been thinking about making a pc jump , but never get around to it. At my home dz in Richmond during the boogie , some people did a 14 way round dive . after breakoff they tracked and pulled and two of them had mal's . So that kinda discouraged me a bit!

Well Vern, you can jump mine any time you want. It was one of the two you reference, so it should be lucky for you now. It had been a LONG time since I saw that many big rigs in the sky.

Tom B

[steve1 5]

I just remembered a couple more things about para-commanders. In the olden days, those who were serious about accuracy usually had their canopies short lined to reduce the pendulum affect when making turns. I think they even sold a shortlined version in the 70's, but I can't remember its name. I think the standard model, most people bought was a Mark 1.
On packing most people I knew would flake and sleeve the canopy. This might also involve making a fold or two on the stabilizer panels. I was always kind of anal about packing, so I always factory packed. This involved flaking the canopy in the usual way and then laying it on the ground and making a few folds, and then sliding a sleeve over it. There were several varieties of packing even then. It also took two people to pack. You fastened the apex to a hook next to the floor and another person leaned back against your container to provide tension on the lines and canopy, while you flaked each panel. This was called asking someone "to lean" for you. I'm sure this brings back memories to a few old guys out there. Today I've got CRS real bad, but I still can recall a few things from back in the good old days. Steve1

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

think they even sold a shortlined version in the 70's, but I can't remember its name.

I've got a friend with one, he calls it the "Piglet" but I'm not sure if that's the *real* name.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wmw999 2,544]

A Piglet was a round canopy, but it wasn't a PC. The Piglet was quite small, and didn't have a pulled-down apex. There were 21' and 23' versions, and there might have been a 19' version, but I don't remember that for sure. I don't think I ever jumped on. They were really marginally better than cheapos as far as I was concerned, but if you were into smaller gear, they were the way to go.
There was also a Piglet container -- it was possible to get a Piglet container big enough for a PC, so it could be that he's referring to the container, too. It's a very old-fashioned looking piggyback, with elastic bungee cords and everything. Also commonly a Jesus rope, because a couple of them had loop locks.
Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ernokaikkonen 0]

>YOU KNOW YOU'RE AN OLD-TIME SKYDIVER WHEN:
>(...)
>You know what a "jesus string" is.

I'm obviously not an old-time skydiver. This has bugged me forever. Could you explain what it is?

Erno

[wmw999 2,544]

A Jesus rope was a piece of parachute line that was attached to the flap of a reserve, and run over the shoulder to the front of the rig. The idea was that if there was a loop lock, the jumper could yank the Jesus string and it would force the container open. Very home-made looking. Most common on Piglets and Starlite containers.
The name was because one would be likely to say "Oh Jesus" at about the same time they were pulling hte string. Sometimes it was called a "last hope rope" too.
Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[flyhi 24]

Quote

Sometimes it was called a "last hope rope" too.

Also remember guys putting a rubber band just prior to the last pin of their rip cord so they couldn't pull it all the way through the flexible metal tube and lose it. Not a good idea.

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[howardwhite 6]

"Also remember guys putting a rubber band just prior to the last pin of their rip cord so they couldn't pull it all the way through the flexible metal tube and lose it. Not a good idea. "

Rubber band, nothing. People were putting lead fishing sinkers on their ripcords.

HW

[steve1 5]

Having a rip cord dangling like that might have been just another thing for your chest mounted reserve to snag on, if you had a malfunction. I made about three hundred jumps on three and four pin containers, and I'd usually slip the handle of my rip cord over my wrist after opening. I did lose a rip cord once though. I had a malfunction, and for whatever reason, I decided to toss it that day before going for my capewells and cutting away.
I never jumped a pig rig, so I don't know much about Jesus cords. The cones and pins on the old rigs were sometimes known not to open when the rip cord was pulled. But actually I never experienced any problems with this. I do remember a few pilot chute hesitations though. Sometimes with a hesitation, I'd give things a good elbow to get things moving off my back. Steve1

[fallfast69 3]

I've still got my first rig that I bought off student status...a 21' Piglet (black) in a Strong, Eagle container with a 26' lopo. That was a a fine canopy with a rate of descent that would scare the shit out of ya. I jumped it last in 1987, in Colorado (field elevation>6000) after some S/L students on T10s, and litterally passed them like they were standing still. Don't ask how, but I don't ever remember not doing a stand up. Maybe cause I was only 145# then! They were built to pack small (ha, ha) for relative workers. That parachute would have become very popular if square technology hadn't developed so quickly.