rcjump 0 #26 September 24, 2002 Thanks Mick good to hear from you , Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #27 September 25, 2002 QuoteSame thing for Racers, they aren't tamper proof. No rig is tamper proof. I can take a razor blade and cut the seal and thread, open the reserve, do whatever I want and pinch it closed. You'd have to be looking for it to know that I did it and even then it would not be all that easy unless you knew what to look for.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #28 September 25, 2002 QuoteHi all, I am considering buying a reflex as my first rig. I have read all the Reflex threads on the site, and I understand the reserve takes a bit of practice to pack right and the pop-top may need to be retightened between repacks. The question I have is, how safe is the rig when the pop-top happens to be less than perfectly tight? The pop-top on the rig I am looking at is quite loose (I can slip more than a finger under the pop-top), A pop top that is that loose is not safe to jump in my opinion. There are quite a few rigs out there that don't have issues associated with an exposed reserve pc top. You can find good bargains on them as well. Why mess with an exposed reserve pc top when you don't have to? Because they deploy quicker? Ya, right. I'd like to see any real evidence of that.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
franck102 0 #29 September 25, 2002 QuoteA pop top that is that loose is not safe to jump in my opinion. There are quite a few rigs out there that don't have issues associated with an exposed reserve pc top. You can find good bargains on them as well. Why mess with an exposed reserve pc top when you don't have to? My conclusion exactly -) I am sure the Reflex is a fine rig but I don't need the complications right now... I ordered a new Wings, and we are looking at a used Infinity for my wife. Thanks for all the advice! Franck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #30 September 25, 2002 QuoteMy conclusion exactly -) I am sure the Reflex is a fine rig but I don't need the complications right now... I ordered a new Wings, and we are looking at a used Infinity for my wife. Ummmm.....the Wings has a partially exposed reserve top that can have the same or similar seating issues as the Reflex, although it is not a pop top. In my opinion, a fairly recent model of the Infinity is more rigger friendly. Wings has great customer service, but then they should, they get a lot of practice dealing with small problems with their rigs. They usually end up with happy, satisfied customers.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,030 #31 September 25, 2002 > Why mess with an exposed reserve pc top when you don't have to? > Because they deploy quicker? Never heard Mick or Dave claim that. John Sherman claims that on the Racer, but he claims a lot of things. Here are the benefits I see to a completely external PC: -More likely to fire in a wrap (if the PC area is clear, the flaps will not hold it back at all) -Almost perfect pin protection (against your back) Here are the drawbacks I see: -One more snag point on non-CRW-flap rigs if the PC is loose Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #32 September 25, 2002 QuoteSame thing for Racers, they aren't tamper proof. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No rig is tamper proof. I can take a razor blade and cut the seal and thread, open the reserve, do whatever I want and pinch it closed. You'd have to be looking for it to know that I did it and even then it would not be all that easy unless you knew what to look for. QuoteI should have said tamper resistant. They are several ways to tamper w/ a Racer or Reflex w/o ever disturbing the seal. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #33 September 25, 2002 QuoteThey are several ways to tamper w/ a Racer or Reflex w/o ever disturbing the seal. Unfortunately, that true of ANY rig.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #34 September 25, 2002 If I had to worry about my rig being tampered with, I think I would choose my friend's and associates more carefully. Any rig can be sabotaged with out even opening the container think of a hypodermic full of sulphuric acid injected into a few places. Not good. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #35 September 25, 2002 And there ya go giving away how to do it. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #36 September 26, 2002 Quote> Why mess with an exposed reserve pc top when you don't have to? > Because they deploy quicker? Never heard Mick or Dave claim that. Niether have I, but then I never said they did either. I do hear it quite often from uninformed jumpers though, referring to pop tops in general, be it a Reflex or Racer. Some even claim it for Javelins, Wings, etc.. QuoteJohn Sherman claims that on the Racer, but he claims a lot of things. Yes and more than a few are fooled by it. See above. QuoteHere are the drawbacks I see: -One more snag point on non-CRW-flap rigs if the PC is loose Snag point is there even on CRW-flap rigs......just not as easy to get at. A loose top on any rig that has an exposed reserve pc can snag on a door on exit/climb out, break the loop and deploy the reserve. Pin protection is the only real benefit I can see and it is a biggy. Is it worth the other baggage? I don't know, but some of the posters here seem to be more concerned with how sexy their rig looks.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #37 September 26, 2002 QuoteIf I had to worry about my rig being tampered with, I think I would choose my friend's and associates more carefully. Tampering doesn't have to be an intentional act of sabotage for the purpose of causing harm. Some well meaning jumper(rigger?) may offer to "help" to tighten a loose top, not really know what he is doing but knows just enough to try and the poor newby doesn't know any better. The tampering is concealed and may have fatal results. Not good.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,030 #38 September 26, 2002 >A loose top on any rig that has an exposed reserve pc can snag on a >door on exit/climb out, break the loop and deploy the reserve. Personally I have seen similar incidents twice; once it almost tore the tail off the aircraft. Both were non pop-top rigs (a Vector and a Telesis.) In fact, Mick was up close and personal on the Telesis incident. Not having an exposed PC is no protection against reserve snags, whether it's the edge of the PC or the flap that gets snagged. On the other hand, it is next to impossible to wiggle the reserve pin out on a Reflex or Racer, so if you want to prevent premature reserve deployments I would think a "hidden" reserve pin would be the way to go. I strongly suspect both of the above incidents would have been prevented by such a rig. I agree that fashion plays a larger role in gear selection nowadays. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #39 September 26, 2002 Quote Not having an exposed PC is no protection against reserve snags, whether it's the edge of the PC or the flap that gets snagged. That's why I like the Mirage/Wings/Talon/newer Javelin reserve pin cover flap because it TUCKS IN. I wonder why such advanced rig like Vector 3 does not utilize this solution? Tucked in reserve cover flap is also safer in canopy entanglements (while sticking out pop-up and not tucked flap is less safe - lines can easily go under them). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #40 September 26, 2002 QuoteVector 3 does not utilize this solution? Actually the Vecor 3 does, just in a different way. Instead of tucking into a slot it folds under and tucks under the side flaps. Derek has a micron and it's reserve flap is just as secure if not more so than the one on my mirage. I have seen though where on both rigs if the reserve is to big or even on the larger containers where the bottom of the flaps don't stay tucked.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #41 September 26, 2002 Hmmmm.......I can personally recall two incidents where the pop top snagged and deployed. I guess it is a tie on anecdotes. But I do agree it is virtually impossible to wriggle loose a reserve pin on a Reflex or Racer. I've seen several premature deployments on non- pop top rigs due to the pin being push or pulled by a dragging reserve cable...on older designs.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
