Thinking About Downsizing

[NathanL100 0]

Ok, so I know that there are a lot posts about this, but like everyone else I need some advise.

I've been jumping my present canopy a Spectre 150 for about 6 months now and I've logged about 230(ish) jumps on it. I can land crosswind, downwind, and 7 out of 10 times I can land on target. I weight 150ish pounds (depending on the time of day) and probably about 180ish out the door. I'm really confident with my present canopy and I feel like I'm ready for a 135, but I know that other people can judge me be better than I can judge myself.

So, would a Stilleto 135 be a death sentence??

Let the lectures begin!

Base # 942
The race is long and in the end, its only with yourself.

[drenaline 0]

I am no canopy expert, only a kid with very low jumps.

if you can master the brake turns, flare turns and all the things your canopy can do, then go for it. I am the same like you, and most prolly will do the same. Again I say (there are a lot of flamers here) take all I have said with a grain of salt, what I said is what I will do in a very far future.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[parachutist 2]

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Ok, so I know that there are a lot posts about this, but like everyone else I need some advise.

I've been jumping my present canopy a Spectre 150 for about 6 months now and I've logged about 230(ish) jumps on it. I can land crosswind, downwind, and 7 out of 10 times I can land on target. I weight 150ish pounds (depending on the time of day) and probably about 180ish out the door. I'm really confident with my present canopy and I feel like I'm ready for a 135, but I know that other people can judge me be better than I can judge myself.

So, would a Stilleto 135 be a death sentence??

Let the lectures begin!

Judging from your experience that you described, I think trasitioning from a 150 Spectre to a 135 Stiletto is a conservative move that you can handle... should be no real threat to your safety as long as you are made aware of the differences between a square vs. elliptical canopy and as long as you pay attention to those differences while you are learning to fly a Stiletto.

I believe that when you are learning to fly a Stiletto there will be one thing that may surprise you because you have very little or no experience with it: flying your openings. Square chutes open relatively on heading pretty much no matter how lazy you are about body positiong during deployment sequence. The stiletto, however, requires a great deal of attention to body position: A good practice is to look out at the horizon when deploying, not down at the earth. This allows you to see the horizon and keep the horizon level and stationary (not turning), which means that your body is level and stationary. Then after you deploy pilot chute and you feel the canopy inflating you'll be stood upright as canopy inflates. At this point you have a good bit of control over the rest of the canopy's opening sequence. It's either going to A) finish its inflation into a spin that you will have to correct or B) it's going to finish its inflation into an on-heading opening. After the canopy has stood you up, you want to keep the horizon level. So keep looking out. If your right side starts getting higher than left then put some weight over onto the right side to force your body to be level again (as it was explained to me.. if you feel the right side getting pulled a little higher than the left, "sit on" the right side & this will shift weight to that side). Same for left side if the left side gets high. continue doing this keeping everything level until your canopy is fully inflated and this will keep your canopy on heading (or very close). Flying the opening is the aspect of flying a Stiletto that took most of my attention when I first bought one a couple years ago. THe rest of flying a Stiletto is pretty straightforward and easy to understand I think.

Open high, find the stall point, don't rush into landing using front risers: this canopy lands fantastic doing a straight-in approach. Ease into more aggressive maneuvers only after you feel that you know the canopy very well =]

And don't just rush out to buy one, get a demo of course!

Chris

[NathanL100 0]

Wow, thanks for all the useful information Chris. I'm already a little wary of the openings on a stileto. They don't call it a Spineto for no reason!!

Base # 942
The race is long and in the end, its only with yourself.

[Jimbo 0]

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So, would a Stilleto 135 be a death sentence??

That depends entirely on your skills and your ability to handle less than ideal opening and landing conditions. These things are easy to deal with on the Spectre, they'll get a bit more interesting on the Stilleto.

Why have you decided on the Stilleto? Why have you decided on the 135? If you're seriously considering getting a new canopy then do yourself a favor and demo, demo, and demo again. There are a wide range of ellipticals out there (Stilleto, Crossfire, Diablo, Cobalt, Samuari, Vengeance, I'm sure there are more) - available in a wide range of sizes, it would be in your best interests both as a skydiver and a consumer to demo as much as you can before you make the final decision.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[airdrew20012001 0]

I stepped down from a triathalon 160 to a stiletto 135 at about the same-ish jump numbers whithout incident. They fly way different, take time, back to the basics. Do some jumps mid-week when the crowds and traffic are lower, that's what I do when I step down. Did the same thing between the 135 and the 119 as well. No hook turns for 20 plus jumps is a good rule as well. Maybe more.

Do you feel like you maxed out the performance of the previous canopy?

Drewfus McDoofus

[rhino 0]

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So, would a Stilleto 135 be a death sentence??

By asking that question you are answering it..

You are not ready if you need to ask. That lack of confidence in your canopy skills will kill you under a faster canopy..

Just wait my friend. Be honest with yourself. You know if you are or aren't ready.

My opinion would be no.. Just wait a bit..

Rhino

[TALONSKY 0]

There is always a lot of controversy around down sizing. Statistically it is always better to be on the conservative side, so that is what a lot of people will push. The real question that needs to be answered is how good of a canopy pilot are you? Elliptical canopies react fast to toggle and harness input so a panic stab of a toggle could be detrimental low to the ground. I personally think that an intelligent person would question a move down and to elliptical canopy regardless of how great of a canopy pilot they are. I also think the answer you are looking for will only come from you and the people that have watched you fly. Just to let you know I do not have a huge amount of jumps on elliptical canopies (about 10 now), but I recently went through this same process you are now.
Have fun and be safe.
Kirk

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[ramon 0]

Hey Chris.

How do you like your VX replacement?



ramon

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[parachutist 2]

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Hey Chris.

How do you like your VX replacement?



ramon

Hey Ramon =]

I haven't had nearly enough opportunities to jump the 92 sq ft. Xaos-27. I was in your area a few weeks ago for the Ballunar Festival (doing CReW stuff). I wish I'd had more time to do other things in the Houston area while I was there, but my schedule was packed... I still want to try your swoop pond one of these days!

My impression of the Xaos-27 so far: First, the brakes were marked *way* too short from the factory. I ended up mounting the toggles a full 6 inches below the factory markings... so the first few jumps I spent adjusting them to give enough slack.

This canopy has a very shallow glide during full flight compared to the VX. I am still not sure whether I like that or not. Also the recovery arc is WAY shorter than that of the VX, which is taking some getting used to. It's more Stiletto-like... do a 90 front riser turn and let go of the riser... canopy comes out of the dive and planes out all by itself pretty quickly. Unlike the Stiletto, I can maintain a good bit of the speed achieved during the dive by getting heavily into both front risers. I do miss the VX's long dives, but this Xaos is going to be a good learning tool for aspects of swooping that I wasn't capable of learning with the VX, particularly rear riser approaches, transitioning to brakes for a longer swoop. The Xaos has a good bit more travel in the rear risers than the VX, seems like the Xaos is a little more forgiving in that department.

Openings on this Xaos are a little softer than on the VX, but more squirrely... VX always seemed to open on heading no problem to me, the Xaos wants to turn.

How are you liking that VX?

blues,
Chris

[ramon 0]

(think I have about 60 jumps on it now) the vX opens softer than my fX (one hard opening packed by someone that rarely packs for me).

rear risers are really twitchy, like no travel before the canopy freaks ( I won't be using them). I had a vilent spinner with only one twist and I also had about 4 twists that flew straight when I made my slinks even. That canopy is sensitive (I must have gained weight...)

Took me a while to get used to diving from 500+ feet and forcing my self to not be aggressive if I was lower than that. Just recently I have been getting some really long surfs (I jump at Skydive houston now about 250' long ditch). I think I can get "dirt water dirt" if I set up right ( this weeknd I did about 3/4 of it and then over shot it about 50 '..soo it was long).

My FX is getting re-lined. I may put the VX back in the closet when my FX 109 gets here so I can really get some more experience on my FX..or I might sell it.

who knows, but I do like the VX and what they say is true, it is totally different than the FX.

thanks
ramon

P.S. I think it was made in New Zealand or Spain (it was not made by precision) and as such none of the seams are coming apart like they were on my FX

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[billvon 2,989]

>I can land crosswind, downwind, and 7 out of 10 times I can land on
> target.

The other two absolutely critical skills are flat turns (be able to turn 45-90 degrees at 50 feet without increasing descent rate) and flare turns (be able to turn 45 in either direction during the flare and land on your feet.) Those are the two things that I would strongly suggest you perfect on the 150 before downsizing; I think the lack of ability to do them is behind at least 50% of the serious landing accidents out there.

[NathanL100 0]

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The other two absolutely critical skills are flat turns (be able to turn 45-90 degrees at 50 feet without increasing descent rate) and flare turns (be able to turn 45 in either direction during the flare and land on your feet.)

I've got the flat turn down really well with my 150, but I don't know what a flare turn is. Sounds a lot like the flat turn. Please elaborate.

Base # 942
The race is long and in the end, its only with yourself.

[billvon 2,989]

> . . .but I don't know what a flare turn is.

Be able to turn 45 degrees in either direction during the flare. Requires coordination of both toggles during the flare to first initiate the turn then to level the wing before you stop moving. On larger canopies it trains you to fly the canopy all the way in; if you can flare turn you are really flying the canopy to touchdown. On smaller canopies it could save your life (or someone else's) when you see an obstacle at the last minute, or when a 5 year old runs in front of you to see his dad who's just landed.

[alan 1]

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Again I say (there are a lot of flamers here) take all I have said with a grain of salt,

I don't agree that there are a lot of flamers here. This is a moderated forum so people often voice opinions that may be unpopular or contrary to your own, but flamers, as a general rule, usually get shut down pretty quickly.

alan

[alan 1]

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I'm already a little wary of the openings on a stileto. They don't call it a Spineto for no reason

Actually that nickname goes back a long time. Back to when the Stiletto was one of the first "elliptical" canopies to be widely marketed. Back then, few if any jumpers realized the importance of flying the openings as Chris described. Lack of knowledge and experience lead to many off heading and spinning openings. Now we know better and with the clarity of hind sight, the nickname is largely undeserved, or at least no more so than any other elliptical canopy in use today.

alan

[bobsoutar 0]

Try one and see! I would probably try a Stilletto 150 first to see if you like it and see if you still want to downsize as well. Maybe try a Sabre 2 and a Safire as well!

Watch out for the openings on any eliptical though. Stay in a big spread while it opens (don't give in to the temptation to reach for the risers too early) and until you get used to adjusting your weight in the saddle, you can largely aviod twists by keeping yourself facing the leading edge of the canopy during opening.

[JDBoston 0]

Rhino,

I would only agree with that logic if he's already demo'ed it a bunch of times and still doesn't know if he's ready for it. If he hasn't jumped it yet, "lack of confidence" is not the problem. Lack of data is.

Part of the reason, I'm sure, why he's asking for opinions here is to figure out whether the experts on the forum think it's too sharp of a jump to make at his experience level (downsizing to whatever wing loading it puts him at, plus going to an elliptical). Asking that question is the right thing for anyone in his situation to do. The next right thing to do, assuming no one knowledgeable says "hell no, you'll f*ing kill yourself under that thing" is for him to demo the canopy. Then he'll have a basis for making a decision...

Joe

[Jonsmann 0]

To be able to do flat turns are an essential skill.
I usually practice above 500 ft, because there are too little speed for a good flare if done low.

I did it once down low, for my demo lisence exam.
The examiner told me to land on a 1 m target behind a hill and in front of a few big trees. Bushes and trees on all sides about 5 meters away. The big trees was in the way for a direct approach, so I had to do two really low turns (90 degrees opposite direction), to get past the trees.
The turbulence was bad, and I won't do it again unless I REALLY have to.
Flat turns leaves you with little or no energy for a flare. Still it is MUCH better than being dead.

- Jacques

[billvon 2,989]

>Flat turns leaves you with little or no energy for a flare.

If this is the case, you are adding too much opposite brake. Add a little less; you will have more energy after the turn for a flare. Of course, at very low altitudes, you will have to play off energy for the flare vs. altitude loss in the turn. In an extreme case, the flat turn _becomes_ the flare by turning at, say, 25 feet then bringing both toggles down to level the wing and complete the flare.

[drenaline 0]

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25 feet then bringing both toggles down to level the wing and complete the flare

done that, it works like a charm.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[mewing120 0]

A 135 may be ok for you, but just remember that they are not the same canopy. The Stiletto's flight characteristics may be much different than the spectre you are used to. They react to input much faster. Just a thought

Ora Vivo

[Ron 10]

Hey Brother the wingload does not seem to be a large step.

(Yes it's me that canopy Nazi saying that)

If you were ataying with the same type of canopy I would just say "Be careful".

But (here comes the lecture)

Why not jump a Stiletto 150 before you have a higher wingload, AND a different type of canopy?

Demo a Stiletto 150 for a few weeks (PD will let you demo one for 2 weeks I think). And put as many hop n pops on it in those 2 weekends. After you learn the differences of the canopies, at a wingload that you are used to, then downsize.

Ask people at the DZ (who have a clue) to watch your landings these two weekends, and maybe video them.

A 1.3 wingload is a good step, and if all you say is true, it might be time to downsize. I would like to see you get some time on the same size Stiletto first, and work on Half Braked (flat) turns. The Stiletto will turn a lot faster, and is much more sensitive to harness inputs.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[NathanL100 0]

Hey thanks for all the feed back guys. I posted this a while ago and since then I decided not to downsize b/c I just ordered a birdman suit and I want to stick with a nice canopy that I'm comfortable with. Maybe after I get a bunch of jumps on my birdman suit I'll start thinking about downsizing again.

Base # 942
The race is long and in the end, its only with yourself.