How to swoop !

[rendezvous 0]

I wan't to start learning how to swoop. Are there drills that can get me into it so that I don't break my legs by starting to learn the wrong way.

[PhreeZone 20]

I've startd to learn to swoop recently so I'm not the best to liste to but here is my deal on it.
1) Stand up all your landing on regular approaches.
2) Stand up crosswinders, and downwinders.
3) Stand up tight accuracy approaches
4) Make slow approaches and then slowly increase the speed on landing to learn the canopy.
5) Start by making slow input on the risers in the last 75 feet. Pull the front risers down about 2 inches while keeping a TIGHT grip on the toggles. Release the risers at 20 feet the first few times.
6) Slowly, over many jumps add more pressure to the risers and release them a touch later.
7) Add a touch of a turn in the risers to build more speed on final. 10-15 degrees at first. Increase the height you start the turn compaied to the double front risers approach.
8) Slowly work the turn to 90 degrees and then after another 50 jumps nailing the 90, practice more 90's.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[skybytch 273]

If you're lucky enough to live near (or if you're able to travel to) a dz that offers advanced canopy control coaching, that's the hot tip imho. Working with an experienced swooper who's also a good instructor/coach is a lot safer way to learn how to do it.
pull and flare,
lisa
--
life's a bitch.. and so am I

[Geoff 0]

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Stand up crosswinders, and downwinders

hmmmm..... If the wind's at all strong, you won't stand them up (OK - maybe on a crosswinder if you have the skill to carve into wind during the flare) and you can hurt yourself trying.
Geoff

[freeflyguy 0]

Getting somebody good that can watch you and know how you fly is best.
Beyond that, swooping isn't as much rocket science as some people seem to think. Basically what you do is land your parachute normally. Hah. At least that is the end result. Your goal should be to land where you want everytime, accuracy. Finish the flair, and stand it up. If you are good at that, you would probably start with a little double front risers to build a little speed. Get good at that, accuracy, watching traffic, finishing the flair, etc... Then gradually you would start with one front riser, no more than 5 or ten degree of turn at first. Keep landing good and normal.
But in the end, the parachute stops flying at the same speed, high speed landing or straight in slow. So work at it progressively.
Couple other things. Stay away from toggle turns to build speed. Also make sure your brake lines are long enough to not deflect your tail when you give it front riser.
Besides that, don't crash.
J

[TheMarshMan1 0]

"Stay away from toggle turns to build speed."
I've heard that a lot....why exactly is that? I assume its because the canopy takes longer to "recover" from a toggle turn? Or am I way off?

[freeflyguy 0]

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why exactly is that?

Somebody else could explain it better than me, but basically, yes, it takes longer to recover.
(this is the part others can explain, but..) The toggle turn will swing you out to the side more than a riser. Besides that, if you are using the toggle to turn, it is also your brake, and means to recover from a dive. So you are allready using half of your recovery ability. Sort of. What you will end up with is having to turn lower with less safety margin and a turn that builds less speed.
With a front riser, you will turn higher, build more speed (since you are not braking one side of the canopy) and have a greater safety margin. That all ends up in a longer swoop, which is the goal anyway :)

[PhreeZone 20]

There is not that much more skill involved in crosswind landings then there are in regular into the wind landings. The test your tendency to reach with your legs near the ground. If you reach you will crash. If you wait till the canopy stops flying then put the feet down, its lots easier to stand it up. The downwinders should only be attempted in light 1-5 mph winds at first. You just need to be ready to run out a down winder since you have lots more ground speed then you are used to at first.
There is nothing that says your canopy has to point into the wind for landing or to flare. A flying canopy does not know where the wind is coming from other then straight it to it. a crosswind just pushes the canopy, it does'nt make it fly differently.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[freeflyguy 0]

I agree with you Phree.
Like I said, just land it normal, and don't quit flying until after the parachute does.
I got blasted by a huge crosswind gust one time. It was fun. It was a very windy day, I was in the middle of a nice swoop, into the wind, and this gust just blows me 40 or 50 feet sideways. Yahoo!!! Sketchy, but still one very memorable landing. Just keep flying till it stops, everytime, and you are doing as good as you can with what you got.

[Geoff 0]

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A flying canopy does not know where the wind is coming from other then straight it to it. a crosswind just pushes the canopy, it doesn't make it fly differently.

definitely agree with that bit. If you do a perfect landing in a 10mph 90 degree cross-wind, you'll have zero airspeed when you touch down, and zero forward groundspeed when you touch down, BUT you'll still be doing 10mph sideways, because that's the speed of the air you're in. Personally, I can't run sideways at 10mph. Ouch.
The normal way to land crosswind is to start the flare cross-wind, but turn into wind during the flare (you see this at Eloy a lot, because of the rule about landing East or West only, whetever the wind direction.)
Similarly, if you have 10mph wind on your tail, and you land perfectly, you will have zero airspeed at the end your flare, but you will still be doing 10mph over ground, because that's the speed of the air you're in. You may be able to run or slide it out, but you may not if the wind's too strong.
Hope that makes sense (does to me) - to be honest I'm not sure whether I'm agreeing or disagreeing with you....!
Geoff

[weid14 0]

why not? if you have good canopy control skills you will be able to sand a cross winder up. If you jump at Eloy and want to land in the main area, you're more than likely going to have to land it cross wind.

[prost 0]

Find someone who is very good and has good teaching skills to teach you. Some of us who taught ourselves did just fine, but then again some of us are in wheel chairs. This is one sport that you do not want to leaern the hard way.
William

[hookit 0]

I read an excellent article online on canopy skills (by John LeBlanc I believe) a while back with a section on high performance landings. I believe it was "The Canopy Pilot's Handbook" and I may still have it on my home pc. If I can find it I'll see if I can post it.
As I remember he recommended you first get a feel for using your risers to control the canopy while still high above the ground.
NEVER let go of the toggles in order to manipulate the risers. You should keep the toggles in your hands at all times such that you can release the risers and flare immediately using the toggles if necessary.
Assuming you're very competent and consistent with landing the canopy normally try pulling down on both front risers gently and evenly on final approach. You should release the risers well before it's time to flare the first few tries.
You should never ride the risers so long that you have to stab the toggles immediately after releasing the risers in order to flare before encountering the ground. Also you want to let off the risers gently. It should be a smooth and fluid effort of easing off the front risers and then easing down on the toggles.
You'll get a feel for the timing involved here but be careful. By pulling down on the front risers you'll increase your airspeed and the ground will start coming at you faster than you're used to. I know it sounds simple enough but I personally know at least one person who's ridden the front risers all the way to the ground. As a wise person once said: You can't flare with your front risers.
That should certainly get you started on the path to Swoopville. It is a long, gradual learning process. Enjoy!
Also make it a habit to watch other canopy pilot's approaches and set ups. Ask those whom you see doing well under canopy for advice. Then double check their advice with another. As Jim Slaton said: "Take advice, choose wisely who you listen to..."
Be an avid student and never stop learning!
Long Safe Swoops,
Trey

[ramon 0]

And hook it freakin hard!!!!!!!
just kidding
look on the australian parachute federation website for a document on flying and landing high performance canopies.
good luck

[ramon 0]

John took some of his stuff out of an excellent/better but longer 60 page article written by Jerry Sobieski.
used to be a link to it on this site, but it has been broken...naughty sangiro
ramon

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Quote

Stand up crosswinders, and downwinders

I do not "stand up" crosswind and downwind landings. For that matter, I rarely "stand up" when I land into the wind. I slide each and every landing under my small chutes to a stop on my feet, one foot in front of the other. Do not ever try and run out a downwinder or crosswinder. Slide to a stop or you will eventually bust your ass and hurt yourself.
Practice all your moves at altitude before you ever do anything on final approach. Never toggle hook. Smooth, straight in, double fronts are first. From there, work into 90 degree one-riser carves. Snatching it around will only pendulum you; you want to stay smooth and gradually increase your speed. Start releasing the riser high and then work your way down to such a point that your canopy isn't cruising along the ground at an altitude of five or ten feet, then letting you down hard at the end. If ever you have to "dig" hard to get around the corner, then you have waited too late and need to start your turn higher and release sooner. As soon as you release your riser (or double fronts), you should be ready to initiate your tap to get you around the corner and on plane. Stabbing hard bleeds off tons of speed. More later.
Chuck
My webpage HERE

[dove 0]

Chuck (and everyone else)
Yippeee!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks so much! I am so glad someone posted this thread! I just started playing with this stuff today. I get a new (demo) canopy for the weekend so I won't be able to play with it as much since I will have to learn the new canopy, but I can't wait to improve in this area and start having some fun!
Hey Chuck - you coming down to Skydive Ciy for the competition?
dove

[Gravitymaster 0]

http://skydiveaz.com/resources/book_canopy.htm

[cobaltdan 0]

most jumpers understand very little about the wings they fly.
they learn how to fly the particular wing they have simply from trial and error. as such most jumpers have a very poor foundation for learning swooping.
swooping & hooking is a high speed ground maneuver. in the interest in not getting killed it makes allot of sense to backtrack and unlearn bad habits and develop an understanding for your wing, all wings, how to determine their flight characteristics & envelope, and with that under your belt how to fly them.
please, put your ego aside and understand that just because you constantly stand up your landings does not mean you are flying your canopy correctly !

below is a repost of mine from a thread called balance and canopy excercises, imo it is key information for aspiring swoopers:
>i would like to explain a simple concept for canopy control as i think it would benefit some learning jumpers:
on student gear most people are taught a 2 stage flare, when you transition to your first slightly smaller 9 cell zpo sport canopy, you may not have good luck with what you have been taught.
flaring is not something you gauge with the position of your hands !
instead understand that you are suspended under your canopy, a weight on a string somewhat like a pendulum. you can tell what you are doing by > feel <, by where you are weighted under your canopy. i.e. if you are weighted back you are diving, centered you are in level flight, etc...
up high, it is a good routine to unstow your brakes and get a feel for where you are weighted in full flight, then flare slowly until you feel yourself in level flight, then flare more and feel what it is like to over flare, swinging towards the front and stall. try the same with turns, ie. a 90 or 180 turn planeing out into level flight. this exercise is not about sight, you are trying to get a feel for what you are doing without using visual indicators. if you are in completely clear airspace and high try it with your eyes closed for several seconds.
once you understand this concept and expand your window of perception to include how your canopy feels during different flight, landings will click. you will be able to understand what you are doing right or wrong.
this last year i have given allot of canopy coaching, and most beginners and surprisingly many intermediates have not been taught the above. they believe there is a set place for your hands to be during a set timing on landing. they try to figure this out so it can be repeated on subsequent jumps. you may figure your canopy out this way but it wont help you when you land your canopy under different conditions than you are used to, or when you demo jump a different canopy. developing your awareness of balance is key to being a good canopy pilot.
i test jump a lot of prototypes and on every jump i go through a routine. loosen chest strap, stow slider, check brakes, then fly a series of maneuvers as per above to get a feel for the canopy. i want to imprint the feel of the canopy up high so that the canopy and i react the way i want on landing. (btw when i say
check brakes: i like to unstow the brakes and watch the trailing edge as i slowly flare stopping at the point where the tail just starts to tension and pull under then i look at where the toggles are in relation to the keeper. i like to know they are even (and how much slack there is in case i need to change them)).
---
swooping is all about the arc...
your developed sence balance of feel, lets you know how your arc is going,
if you are where you are supposed to be. you visual perceptions basically only tells you how high you are when you start your turn and then how low you are just before you land/hit, inbetween its all your sense of balance that is telling you where in your arc you are, and therefore your altitude and direction.
its kind of hard to explain, i hope this is making sense to you.
think of learning to ride a bike, your sight gives you direct input if you tilting to a fall, but that is not enough for you to react and correct. its all about developing a sence of balance.
sincerely,
dan
www.extremefly.com

[alan 1]

Quote

"Stay away from toggle turns to build speed."
I've heard that a lot....why exactly is that? I assume its because the canopy takes longer to "recover" from a toggle turn? Or am I way off?

Read through this forum, there are several threads that will give you some insight. Also, do a search for posts from Paul Quade both here and in the Gear and Rigging Forum. He has posted some very good info on the aerodynamics involved in parachute flight. You will find a post in which he goes into a lot of detail on stalls. The short version is that in a front riser turn, if you find yourself too low to complete the turn, you can simply ease up on the riser and the canopy will start to recover with no loss of speed and therefore more efficiently. Additionally, the canopy is returning to its' "normal" airfoil and flight mode, which again is more efficient. If you are too high, you just stop the turn by pulling down the other riser and do a straight in approach with both front risers. The trick is to not use too much front riser input and over distort the canopy/airfoil, this will greatly reduce its' efficiency. It will start to "buck" when you go too far. Conversely, if you do a toggle turn too low and find yourself
"in the corner", your only option is to flare, or worse yet,
"stab" your brakes. This will do several things, including rapidly changing your angle of attack which can lead to an accellerated stall too near the ground. It will also radically change the camber of the airfoil very quickly as well, which will increase drag and cause the airflow to delaminate from the canopy/wing. This reduces efficiency and when combined with the sudden/radical change in aoa, you again increase the likelyhood of a wing that will cease to fly. So, you will have induced drag, slowed your airspeed, radically changed/increased your aoa, and distorted your airfoil as opposed to reducing induced drag, increasing your airspeed, returned to the designed aoa, and returned to an undistorted airfoil. Of course with a toggle hook, if you realize soon enough that you are too low to complete the turn, you can always abort to a crosswind/downwind landing or go a braked turn to conserve altitude in exchange for speed. This assumes you take action before getting into the corner. Still, less desireable options than with the front risers. OK, so that wasn't real short. There is much more to it and I may have over simplified, but I think this was enough for a basic explanation.
alan

[alan 1]

Quote

John took some of his stuff out of an excellent/better but longer 60 page article written by Jerry Sobieski.
used to be a link to it on this site, but it has been broken...naughty sangiro

I discussed this paper with John at SDC's Winter Expo last year. If my memory is correct, he said Jerry had asked him to co-author it but John refused because there were some things in it he did not agree on, even though he had provided a considerable amount of input. He did not elaborate on that aspect though.
Personally, I think anyone who wants to be a serious canopy pilot, should be familiar with Sobieski's paper. I had asked Sangiro to re-post it to Dropzone.com and he did, but somehow it got lost in one of his upgrades to the site. Maybe if he received enough requests for it again, he would re-post one more time. I believe I have it in a Word file and if anyone requests a copy, I would try to e-mail it as an attachment. The scan on it was not very good, so it is not the best quality and it is difficult to read in the printed version, but it is better than nothing.
It contains some very technical information that may be difficult to follow and may be too in depth for the average recreational pilot, but it also has some very simple, straight forward information as well, which every novice could benefit from.
alan

[cloud9 0]

Ok here's one I've been curious about and have asked around. I've got many different answers but none from anyone that did anything other then guess.
How fast do you get under a canopy during a swoop? I mean like the fastest speed right before the corner or where ever that may occur? Also has anyone ever used a radar gun or some kind of speed indicater to verify the speed? Now I know its going to be different at different wing loadings and with different canopies but I've heard anything from 55 mph to over 100 mph. So does anyone know whats closer to right?

[PhreeZone 20]

I've heard TK was clocked at like 50 something on the chow he had last year.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[skycat 0]

One of the the guys who is a cop here in town and used to jump brought out his lazer gun and clocked Derek doing 90 under his VX 60. Not sure where in the hook that it was clocked at, but Derek right now thinks he is able to go faster, cause at the time he only had 6 jumps on the canopy, and now he has something like 600.

[favaks 0]

Found this on the web. Is this it?
http://www.afn.org/skydive/sta/highperf.pdf
favaks