crossbraced canopies

[freeflyguy 0]

Crossbraced, eliptical and ZP are all EVIL.
He hee. I love my XAOS at 2.1. But I do agree with Lisa's first post, mostly. I really think a person should BE ABLE to fly the snot out of a lighter loaded canopy, before he goes smaller. The time to learn a 270, and all that accompanies it, is when you have a bit more margin for error.
That said, I love the carving 270's starting at 700 Feet WAHOO!!!
j

[freefallin14 0]

I have been watching all these discussions and finally am gonna through my 2 cents in. I am not by any means a canopy nazi, but I do not want to see people with 200-300 jumps on fully elliptical cross braced canopies. I agree that a person should only be judged in person, not by jump numbers. Are they athletic (run out the landings), smart, are they a pilot, do they understand aerodynamics, have they been in situations which required emergency low turns, cut-away, do they jump every week, etc. The problem is that many of the answers are no for some people who decide to jump these canopies at the loading they do. I think these people who are looking into flying these canopies must first ask what their goal is. Why do I want to do this? Do I want to pack this thing every jump? (bigger pack volumes) If their goal is to become a professional swooper, then maybe they should ask one the pros how they became the pilot they are. Is downsizing the smartest way to get there or the fastest? Chuck Blue did not jump his Cobalt 65 with 300 jumps. Even a lot of the pros i have sought advice from say they carry another larger canopy to jump if they have been out even a couple weeks. You must stay on top of your game with them. The problem is that with these canopies at these loadings, there is no room for error. Is it possible for someone with 300 jumps to never have had a bad landing, sure. But for them to think they will continue this trend while jumping into something they know very little about is crazy. All standup landings doesn't mean much or is that impressive. A landing other than that under a rocket means death. Yeah you may think you will only land straight in every time, but stuff happens on final, whether you are ready or not. Being not ready means implanting with a serious vertical component of speed. One mistake is all it takes. Please let me reiterate that I believe in progressive downsizing for people with obviously good canopy skills, but downsize smartly. Why not get what you paid out of your current canopy by getting every single amount of performance you can? If you have with 100 jumps on it then go for it, but not many sizes at a time and not to a completely different planform. And if you really have to ask a ton of questions about them, then guess what, you’re not ready to fly one. These are just my opinions and I know everyone is entitled to theirs, just please make sure you (and everyone around you!!!) will be safe is the main thing I guess.
Bret

[SBS 0]

Thanks for your comments Chris.
"(I discovered a while back, never, never say "for your
experience level", you'll only challenge the caller to prove his ability over the phone... which is
impossible.)"
This is something that comes up often, is that someone can always lie to you over the phone. There are two ways to handle this, as far as I am concerned...
1) Contact the dropzone
2) Accept what the customer says. We are doing our best to keep people safe...if they choose to lie to us, there is very little we can do. We can't be expected to make decisions that are correct for someone if they are not being straight with us. That is their own decision, and they will have to live with the consequences. I believe that our moral liability stops well short of this situation.
"Now that I'm politically correct, please do not think "cross-brace" is a satanic symbol."
Don't get me wrong, I think crossbracing is great. It's just that at this time, along with crossbracing comes small canopies. Until we can make a crossbraced canopy that does not have to be loaded at 2.0, I don't believe that they have any place on the backs of inexperienced jumpers. The big issue is that people that don't know better hear that crossbracing makes a better canopy, the fact that they are not ready to move down to a small canopy like that becomes almost secondary.
Maybe all canopies will be crossbraced someday. For now, though, I think that they are the end of a progression, that should include getting to know the ins and outs of everything that comes before, including a Spectre, a Sabre/SabreII, a Crossfire/Stiletto/Nitron, etc. People are under the false impression that crossbracing and small canopies produce swoops, so are in a hurry to get there. I think the choice is whether someone wants to jump down in size and go fast now, or progress through learning, and become a truely impressive canopy pilot.
Steve

[diverds 0]

__________________________________________________My reccommendation for MINIMUM loading on any crossbraced canopy is about 1.7 -1.8 lbs./ft
__________________________________________________
My wife jumps an FX 99 at a wing loading of 1.4 and loves it! She jumped many demo canopies, including most of the ones mentioned above in this post, before purchasing the FX and none of them had the bottom end flare of the x-braced FX. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO LOAD AN X-BRACED CANOPY HEAVILY TO GET BETTER PERFORMANCE RELATIVE TO OTHER CANOPIES!

[SBS 0]

"YOU DO NOT HAVE TO LOAD AN X-BRACED CANOPY HEAVILY TO GET BETTER PERFORMANCE RELATIVE TO OTHER CANOPIES! "
It's nice that you are so sure of this that you need to shout, but keep in mind that the 1.7-1.8 minimum was a recommendation, not a requirement. Also keep in mind that it came directly from a manufacturer, not some random schmuk making an observation.
Not that Chris isn't a schmuk, don't get me wrong.
:-) j/k Chris.
Steve

[markbaur 0]

Quote

the 1.7-1.8 minimum was a recommendation

Why is underloading a cross-braced canopy a bad idea? Does it create problems with opening, stability, or landings?
I understand cross-bracing is more expensive, and makes bigger pack volume, and you don't get the performance benefits until you load up the canopy.
Mark

[freeflir29 0]

"you don't get the performance benefits until you load up the canopy"
I think that's the bottom line.....
"Houston? That place is full of Crack heads and debutantes."- Hank Hill
Clay

[SBS 0]

"Why is underloading a cross-braced canopy a bad idea? Does it create problems with opening,
stability, or landings?
I understand cross-bracing is more expensive, and makes bigger pack volume, and you don't get the
performance benefits until you load up the canopy."
This, I am not exactly sure of the answer, but I'm sure that Chris could probably give you some info.
As far as what I do know, I believe that the reasons that you stated are some of the main points...i.e. - why waste the extra money and pack volume, if you are not going to benefit? I don't know that is actually a "bad" idea to underload one. It would be like buying a high tech computer when all you're going to do is word processing and e-mail. That would be my main point...I do believe that there are some issues like opening, etc. that may be effected by underloading, but again, if Chris could give you answers, that would be best.
Steve