rhino 0 #26 March 12, 2002 I'm with Hook on this.. His strategy makes sense. Good sense. I will follow this road :)Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #27 March 12, 2002 Learning to fly a large canopy aggressively and learning to swoop a fairly large canopy are two different things.I had NO BUSINESS AT ALL trying to learn to swoop on my Triathlon150 at 1.25. NONE. Hook is right on this one as usual. You need the longer recovery arc. How can anyone in here POSSIBLY argue with him? HOW?If I want to learn how to make money I associate and learn from a person that is in the position I want to be in. I don't see how swooping is any different. Hook KNOWS what he is talking about. I have yet to see ANYONE including Mullins that can outfly him? I for one take his word on swooping progression as the law that needs to be followed. His mind set is WAAAYY to advanced not to listen. When he talks to me about the mindset and the mechanics behind swooping I SHUT MY MOUTH and OPEN MY EARS.Learn from him..Skybitch this wasn't at you just in general to the post.RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #28 March 12, 2002 Listen up..LONG before there was such a thing as sub 100 canopy, we were swooping our asses off at much lower wingloads. Well over a decade ago, once some people began to realize you could live through a landing on a 150 square foot canopy, which was the ABSOLUTE smallest thing on the market, people truly began to "swoop", though we did not call it that. "Swooping" is what one did at the end of his dive to a large RW formation; turf surfing is what one did at the end of his landing. The Golden Knights 8-way team were jumping PD 190's and 170's at the time, I was jumping Bogy 9 150's and a 175, and we we were all initially toggle hooking the piss out of them. Then, some of us started yanking risers to build speed. The Deland Gang showed up with the new PD Excalliburs and we were floored. They had 135's and 150's and were swooping the shit out of them; clear across the dropzone. I bought myself a new Excallibur 150 and did what it took to keep that thing close to the ground. They made smaller ones, but nobody jumped them at all. Jack Jeffries was the only guy I know that jumped a 120, but that was not until later. Do the math and you will find that the average wingload for turf surfing back then was about 1.2. Yes, parachutes had a shorter recovery arc back then, but the same rules applied and we did what we needed to do to get the maximum surf out of whatever we had over our head. We dumped high, checked our altitude, threw our move and let it plane out, checked altitude again, then came in and tried it out. Shit, my old roomate Rixter Neely was renting gear from the club until he finally got his first real rig and he would hook the piss out of whatever was in it, including a ParaFoil one weekend because that was all that was left in the loft!The bottom line here is that you can think what you want, but the reality is that you can swoop any damn thing you want. When I am feeling exceptionally jump-hoggy down at my dad's DZ in Alabama, I have been known to grab whatever is sitting on the rack and get straight back on the plane. You think I am not going to swoop whatever is in the container? I can swoop my dad's Sabre 190 and 210 all the way across the DZ with ease. You just make a different kind of turn under a canopy that large. What I do is a larger one-riser dive; sometimes up to a 360 to build mad speed and I come out of it much lower because I know it is going to plane out immediately. Look I am not telling anyone to swoop. I am just telling you that if you think you need a heavily loaded main to even practice on you are full of crap. The same principles apply and a good pilot will get a swoop out of whatever is over his head if he chooses. My initial reasons for downsizing were twofold: First, the 200 square foot canopies of the day were literal boats over my head and I was getting blown all over the sky on windy days. Second, big main equals big container and I am not a big dude so rigs were hanging off the sides of my back and hampering my RW. So, as rigs became available that fit me better, I was able to get the smaller mains I needed to more safely (yes, safely) get me to the ground. As better, faster, smaller parachutes became available I was right there. Still I stayed at 135 for quite a few years when smaller stuff was available. I weighed 150 pounds soaking wet. I didn't need anything smaller to get the job done, so I didn't see the point.I regularly get away with wingloads as high as 2.8 on the 65, but that is purely for vanity and test purposes. Nowadays I normally load between 2.2 and 2.3 on a 75 for general use and competition, but can still pick up someones Hornet 150 to test jump and get a fantastic turn out of it. The same principles apply no matter what you are jumping. Learn on what you have, then if you truly want to downsize go ahead, but in moderation. Never let vanity drive you; that is when you get hurt. The worst swoop mishaps I ever had were under a Sabre and a Monarch 135 because I was doing stupid shit. ChuckMy webpage HERE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eames 0 #29 March 12, 2002 Hey rhino, what's that on your nose?A couple things about your last post annoy me: First, no single person's word should be followed "as the law." It doesn't matter how many jumps they have or how talented they are. Everyone has to learn from his/her own perspective, hopefully drawing from a _large_ number of resources. Secondly, the most talented people are not *necessarily* the best teachers, and vice versa. Though I'm not talking about anyone in particular in this forum, since I don't know most of you. So sure, listen to Hook, but don't limit yourself to listening to him just because you think he's the best. That's kinda narrow minded, don't you think?Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #30 March 12, 2002 Once again.... the voice of experience and wisdom. Good post Chuck on the history of the surf...Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #31 March 12, 2002 I didn't question your swoop ability Chuck.. You have to admit that for a non-swoop god to learn something with a longer recovery arc is safer. Sure anything can be swooped by the right pilot. Now days we have canopies that are MADE to swoop as you know.. You are jumping one yourself. It is a HUGE advantage to have the benefit of 1000 feet to work with instead of 100. You guys invented swooping. Thank you. You put yourself at more risk than current jumpers have to with canopies that are made to swoop.. Don't you agree?RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #32 March 12, 2002 Yeah, Chuck, good post - now just be careful you don't have a rhino crawl up your butt!!! "Don't die until you're dead" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #33 March 12, 2002 Nothing is on my nose.. I picked the person I saw making the money and making the best decisions that I could get my hands on. And I am emulating what he did to get where he is. Simple. I simply don't understand how some people can argue if they don't know what he knows?Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #34 March 12, 2002 Funny.. You went to college didn't you?? Common, what's the secret??LOLBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #35 March 12, 2002 I have been a professional golfer for 4 years now.. Just because I emulate Jack Nicklaus golf swing and take his advise doesn't mean I am brown nosing with him LOL. It is a sign of intelligence. Knowing you don't know everything. Seeking the best information. Where swooping is concerned I DON'T KNOW A DAMNED THING.. But I know who does. That is who I listen to and watch. As far as taking it as law.. I only have ONE golf coach that knows my swing. MY swing. How is canopy flight any different? Does EVERYONE know your ins and outs or are you seeking guidance and improving advise from ONE coach. Too many cooks in the kitchen and you don't know what in the hell is going on. Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #36 March 12, 2002 First off- I have been wrong before and I'm positive I will be wrong again. A doctor friend of mine told me that when he was in med school that they told him 30% of what we will teach you is wrong, we just don't know which 30%.Second- Chuck, you are right, you can swoop anything. I don't think we are really disagreeing. Everything you said is right, my point is before someone gets into radical hook turns, be they carving 180's or snap 180's, they should be on an elliptical at a 1.5-1.7 wing loading. That is my opinion. Could I get away w/ hooking a sabre 210?, sure. Could I do it safely 100/100 times? I am not sure I could. I know (for a fact) I can hook my VX 100/100 times w/o successful results. It think the tolerances are too tight and I would eventually hook it just a little too low....along w/ getting lousy landings sometime from hooking it too high. Is it possible I am just so used to hooking it from 700-800 ft that hooking it lower under a larger canopy is just something I am not used to? Sure, but I think it has more to do w/ the tolerances. I have had this conversation w/ another VX pilot (a good one) and this is the theory we came up w/.That's the cool thing about this forum, there are several high speed canopy pilots here from different parts of the country w/ different canopy experiences. People can read our opinions, ask questions, and then take what they like from each of us and make (semi :-))-informed decisions. If someone posts something that someone else disagrees w/ it is great for other people to sit back and read both sides and then decide for themselves. I don't expect anyone to take my opinion and make it law, but just consider it.Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eames 0 #37 March 12, 2002 Yeah, the brown nosing comment was just a joke, hope you took it that way.But to reply to your last post.... Does EVERYONE know my ins and outs? No. Am I therefore seeking the advice of only one coach? Most definitely not. I still seek the advice of as many competant individuals as I possibly can. I agree with you in that I do tend to seek advice from the ones that are doing the things that I want to be able to do, but I have yet to find any single person that has ALL the traits that I want to emulate.Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #38 March 12, 2002 I just wrote a pretty long rant about something not entirely related to this thread, so I deleted it and will post it elsewhere in this or another forum. The bottom line, though, is that anyone wanting to learn a specific task ought to use all sources available to him and not worship any one "god" like a mindless automaton. Man, you never stop learning. My favorite part of competing is being out on the road and sharing tips with others. Everybody does shit differently, but most do very well with their own wildly-varying style. My best advice is to study tapes, go and watch competitions, talk to everyone you see there, and eventually come up with your own technique which works best for you, no matter what the discipline. The average Joe has no business ripping 270's and finishing up with rear risers. I tailor my advice to each specific individual when I talk to them on the dropzone or on the road. That being said, I also try to answer specific questions with specific answers and vague, generalized questions with generalized answers. There are some guys in California who have created a sort of "history of swoop" video. The problem is, NONE of them have been skydiving more than about 8 years. No matter how many jumps they have; they just weren't skydiving during the formative years of the discipline, therefore they can only truly show what they "think" is how it happened and what was possible. Do you follow me here? ChuckMy webpage HERE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #39 March 12, 2002 Right on, Derek. It's an individual event and everyone does things their own way; some quite successfully. On the other hand, there are the Bruno Rodriguez's who just don't listen.ChuckMy webpage HERE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #40 March 12, 2002 True.. I know you were joking.. Hence the college degree joke :) lolI drilled Derek because he has the best safety record, he is just fucking bad ass under that VX60. I want to do that someday. It is the most awesome thing I've ever seen!! You can hear that damned canopy coming a thousand feet away. Watching it is awesome.. I want to be in the pilots seat someday. He happened to be the most qualified swooper at SPL when I jumped there. Not only is he a kick ass pilot he is a rigger. I've actually seen him studying something and the thoroughness was impressive. They were discussing scuba diving and air mixtures and such at different depths.. WAY over my head. I appreciate anyone that has that mindset. When I jumped in Tennessee at Mullins DZ I took my advise from Charlie Mullins. He was the best swooper at the DZ. His advise to me was find the best one and find out what he knows. So that's what I do.. I looked up to Charlie, I also look up do Derek. I want to know what he knows.. Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
polarbear 1 #41 March 12, 2002 I guess I have to agree that bigger recovery arcs can be safer. I just don't believe that the "optimum" safety occurs at 1.5-1.7. I guess I just feel that mistakes that will certainly be made by new swoopers can be much too costly under that high of a wingloading.To each his own. One thing I am sure we can all agree on is that whatever you fly/swoop, remember it can be fast enough to hurt, so be careful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #42 March 12, 2002 QuoteIt would scare the hell out of me to hook a large F-111 canopy.Wuss......."I only have a C license, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #43 March 12, 2002 Well, let's talk specifics.Take "Bob", for example.Bob has a few hundred jumps, most under a Triathlon loaded at 1.1Bob has shown to be relatively good at landings, above average for someone with a few hundred jumps. He's stood up every landing since jump number 13. He's comfortable with crosswind and downwind landing, even in moderately high winds.Bob has been playing with double-fronts for a while. At first they were just too much fun. Now he's doing them on every landing and is starting to wonder if there's something else.Bob knows he could take the next step and start to learn 90 and 180 degree turns, but he wonders if this would really be a smart thing under his 1.1 Triathlon.Thoughts?ICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #44 March 12, 2002 Bob should just do it. Learn on what you are most comfortable with. Just learn the dynamics and how other canopies react so that you know what to expect when you move to the next canopy. If I get this heatwave and survive it for a while I'll know even more. I feel it's time to go ellyptical for me. I have many hooks under my big ol PD 190 but I have to start all over again now. "I only have a C license, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,032 #45 March 12, 2002 Bob should first make sure he can really control the Triathalon, including all the stuff we usually talk about (flare turns etc.) Next, I'd suggest he tries gentle front riser turns to final, starting from 20 degrees or so up to 45. If he likes all that, and still feels like he has control of the canopy, can predict where it will recover on his own etc. then it's probably a good time for him to downsize - _if_ he wants the additional speed.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #46 March 12, 2002 I'm w/ Bill. Get into some carving and when comfortable and have fully explored carves, downsize (if he wants more speed) and start all over. I would recommend not getting into full blown hooks until on a fully elliptical at a higher wingloading.Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prost 0 #47 March 13, 2002 Bob should buy a VX46 and try a 540 degree hook turn.Seriously though, there is no right answer and boob will probably buy the smallest canopy that anyone tells him is ok.William Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #48 March 13, 2002 True...The cool thing about skydiving is we all push our limits. That is what makes it so much fun.. Bob will push his surely.. As I push mine.. And as you push yours.. God Bless America :)Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #49 March 13, 2002 And I'll push Bob around in his wheelchair. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #50 March 13, 2002 LMFAO!!!!!!!!!I sure hope not...Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
