cobalt wingloading?

[rmcvey 0]

OK. My cobalt has possesed me. I REALLY luurve this canopy.
Im jumping a 135 loaded at 1.1 lbs/sq2

(i weigh 135 lbs butt naked)

I have 140 jumps and consider myself "competent" for my expierence level.
My last 30 landings:

25ish out of the 30 have been with some form of front riser input ( The others were either too windy for my liking or trafficv wouldnt allow)

All stand up landings

Ive been experimenting with up to 90degree front riser approaches, not violet snappy riser turns but smooth changes of direction with front risers usually ending back on both for the last second or two.

Even at the light wingloading riser pressure is light and in light winds can get a luuurvely surf.

MY PROBLEM IS this:

Is it too early to go smaller?? I know EVERYONE asks this question but i really am in two minds.

The responsible saftey conscious patient skydiver in me says my current canopy is good for a least another 200 jumps before i even THINK about downsizing.

but i just feel slightly let down after landings, not at all with the canopy, but the little demon beer drinking chain smoking freeflying teenager rears its ugly head and whispers in a devilish voice inside my head...
..
.
.
.. get the 105,.... get the 105.....you know you want it....... go on.... youll be loading it at 1.45 and the ATAIR manual says 1.2~1.4 for beginners......


And part of my saftey conscious side agrees, but 140 jumps on a 105 @1.45 , it just sounds like an ambulance ride

!!

AAAAARRRRGGHH!!
So is it wise to demo the 120 and then the 105 or am i trying to run before i can walk???

PS before anyone suggests other canopies its going to be a cobalt. I thought about the Xfire2 but two stage openings and the easiest packing canopy ive come across has sold it.

[ramon 0]

Always demo before you buy.

In fact demo everything it's fun and you will be happier later when you purchase.

ramon

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[rgoper 0]

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Is it too early to go smaller?? I know EVERYONE asks this question but i really am in two minds.

YES...it's too early to go smaller. MASTER this canopy, then entertain the idea of downsizing. and as Ramon said, demo everything. i to, fly a cobalt, and my observations are much the same as yours. be conservative.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[ernokaikkonen 0]

Don't hurry. You have the rest of your life to downsize.

Without knowing anything about your canopy handling abilities, I wouldn't downsize before you have at least 200 jumps. At least. And then I'd buy the 120 instead of the 105. Why do you feel you can skip a size?

And don't listen to anything I said

Erno

[rmcvey 0]

From an earlier post you say youve just purshased a cobalt @1.5 and you have 350 jumps.

Are you telling me you were the "master" of your previous canopy before you went to such an "un-conservative" wing loading??

Can you do 270 front risers layouts and land on a disc the size of a football on every jump in any weather condition????
To me this is being the master of ones canopy.

I dont claim to be the master of my canopy and could probably do another 2000 jumps on it and still not have every single element of the canopy under my complete control at any instant.

What im getting at in my original post was that the cobalt is unique in the way wing loading effects its flying characteristics when compared to a rival canopy.
A Stilletto or Xfire 2 loaded at 1.45 i would not consider at such high loading for my expierience, but after studying the Atair website im led to believe the cobalt can be loaded one size heavier to a similar canopy.

Basicly, If what the website leads me to believe is true, it will like me getting a stilletto @ 1.25

DAN!!! get your ass in here.

[rgoper 0]

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Are you telling me you were the "master" of your previous canopy before you went to such an "un-conservative" wing loading??

yes, that's what i'm telling you, if i did not think this, and consult learned colleagues, i would NOT have done it. by the way, i did not downsize, i just went fully elipitical from semi-elipitical, i could have downsized at the same time, but didn't because i listened to my colleagues advice and stayed with the same size canopy, it's just a stepping stone to future downsizing.

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Can you do 270 front risers layouts and land on a disc the size of a football on every jump in any weather condition????
To me this is being the master of ones canopy.

98% of the time, yes. but i won't jump "any" weather condition, neither will anyone else who improvises their good sense.

tell you what, YOU asked for advice, i gave it. buy the "dishrag" and jump it. but don't question me about what, why where and when, your the one in doubt, not me. i'm only trying to help you. but by all means sir, do as you wish, just remember, you will have to fill out a form and possibly be required to show a logbook to buy a canopy like the one you suggests, if you buy it new. please, take your time.

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DAN!!! get your ass in here.

i doubt seriously Dan is going to "rush right in here" after you summoned him in such a manner. be safe, take care.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[PhreeZone 20]

Screw what the website and every companies marketing has to say... Marketing is only there to sell you a canopy, its not there to keep you safe.


Let me tell you a story about my Cobalt....

I jump a 150 at 1.2, I've been on video doing 45 foot slides and 80+ feet under 10 feet. I'm up to 240 jumps om this canopy so I've started to get the knack of some of its more extreme ranges. Balloon jump, WFFC '02 I chose a farmers yard to land in. As soon as I made a flat turn to a short Runway I started wiching for an extra 20 feet over my head. I completely surfed across the yard and decided to bail into a gravel drive way to avoid going across a road and into power lines. Many bruises and cuts after that one. Shreaded my lucky sweatshirt and injured my ego. Last weekend, In TX I was in a hit and chug, hot no wind day and I came into a landing area that had lots of people standing in it. Came in so hot and fast on just 135 degress risers I swooped 40 feet then had to go up and over one of the people on the ground. Needless to say I surprized myself and everyone on the ground with that one.

Even a lightly loaded canopy is capible of decent swoops once you learn how to fly it. If I had'nt taken the time and jumps to start to learn my canopy there is a good chance that I would have had broken bones or worse on a few jumps, both those posted and some others. There are few times on off landings where I say to myself... Gee... 30 less feet here sure found make this a safer landing. There are more times I say gee... 20 more feet would make this a lot easier and safer...

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[PhreeZone 20]

>just remember, you will have to fill out a form and show a logbook to buy a canopy like the one you suggests, if you buy it new

I've seen a few people order 120 and smaller canopies new and not one has ever had to show a logbook. Who asks to see it?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[rgoper 0]

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I've seen a few people order 120 and smaller canopies new and not one has ever had to show a logbook. Who asks to see it?

www.extremefly.com/aerodynamics/canopies/competitioncobalt.html

go here as well...

www.extremefly.com/aerodynamics/contact/

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[rmcvey 0]

>tell you what, YOU asked for advice, i gave it. buy >the "dishrag" and jump it.

Your advice is much appreciated and im sorry if i sounded if i was having a dig at you personally in regard to your canopy situation, because i wasnt.

But when you say "dishrag"..yes the canopy is physically small but surely the wingloading Vs experience is the factor i need to be looking at?

>but don't question me about what, why where and >when, your the one in doubt, not me. i'm only >trying to help you. but by all means sir, do as you >wish, just remember, you will have to fill out a form >and possibly be required to show a logbook to buy >a canopy like the one you suggests, if you buy it >new. please, take your time.

I hope they do ask and hope they refuse to sell me one if im not ready.

But why? They will sell me a 105 if i say im a beginner?

[Samurai136 0]

You may meet manufacture's recommendation of 1.2-1.4 for 'beginners' but that does not mean the 105 is 'safe' for you loading it at 1.4.

There is a good article on the PD website explaining wingloading, canopy size and experience. Basically what says is that two equally loaded canopies of different sizes the smaller one will be faster. The two canopies are flying in the same air.

Using your 'butt naked' weigh to figure wing loading is also an inaccuraccy. Unless you actually jump naked.

Use your total exit weight, fully geared up to figure wing loading. You probably load that 135 a bit more than you realize.

If you don't feel challenged w/ the wingloading you have try learning more advanced techniques. Work up to doing long 270 degree turns w/ rear riser for the flare on the canopy you have.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[rgoper 0]

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I hope they do ask and hope they refuse to sell me one if im not ready.

rob:

i'm really not sure what their criteria is, but how will "they" know if your ready? YOU have to know that. there's enough experience in these forums if you just listen to them. (don't listen to me, i'm WAY low-timer compared to others here)

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But why? They will sell me a 105 if i say im a beginner?

no, they will not. it is pretty much prescribed for the first 200 or so jumps wing loading stay at a 1:1:0 or even .9:1:1 you can make your canopy do all sorts of things, trust me, but as i said previously, do as you wish. good luck, take care, be safe.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[rmcvey 0]

Thanks for your input.

Im familiar with the article and the point you made about two indentically loaded canopies, the smaller size flies faster.

Also, if i jumped naked i would be loading a 105 at less than 1.3 lbs/sqft2

Yes I took into consideration the weight of my rig/canopy shoes socks undercrackers, dental fillings etc when i worked it out for the 105.

But still, my argument remains what advantage would ATAIR gain by selling tiny canopies to incompetent pilots? I believe the larger sizes retail at a higher price so its not a selling point. From the photos articles and technical info available on the website its a pretty convincing argument and im sure they have no intention of comprimising safety when recommending the wingload of a canopy to customers.

any cobalt jumpers want to share your thoughts?


dan? pleease? help me out?? anyone~??

[rgoper 0]

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but the little demon beer drinking chain smoking freeflying teenager rears its ugly head and whispers in a devilish voice inside my head...

not to be mean, crude or anything else, but i believe this is your whole problem. slow down, and live! it's all about living. i've lost 2 personal friends this year alone, so be careful. bear in mind that the people who are responding have your best interest at heart, i'm one of them, and i don't even know you. in any event, contact dan at atair, or visit their web site. take care...

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

My question to the original poster is this: how many jumps did you have when you bought your Cobalt? Also: how many jumps do you have on the main now? If you just bought that main very recently, then you ought to just hang onto it for a while and get to where you absolutely rule it. Parachutes are not cheap, and the containers they go into are not either. Just a guess, but I bet you would probably have to get a smaller container if you go down two sizes to the 105. Are you ready to spill that amount of cash?

As for the question of whether or not I think you would be able to get away with jumping the 105 at the wingload you are talking about: I don't think you would have any problems, assuming you don't just go up and start throwing 270's right away. There are plenty of "intermediate" jumpers around here jumping Cobalts at around 1.2 or 1.3, but they don't show their asses because we don't let them. Personally, I would just keep your current main and work on your canopy skills until there is nothing else to get out of it, then consider trading down to a smaller size. Rushing to downsize just for the sake of vanity is not the hot ticket.

Chuck Blue
D-12501
<><>Team Atair Swoop

[rgoper 0]

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Rushing to downsize just for the sake of vanity is not the hot ticket.

i knew there was a reason you are the moderator!

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[rmcvey 0]

Yes, i will be needing a new container as my current main is a size smaller than the container was built for.

After reading the replies from everyone I think i'll keep hold of the 135 for a few months, and then demo the 120.

Still not 100% on how ATAIR stand on their sizing guide and where the figures have come from.

And still feel comfortable with the idea of the 105 but have begrudgingly taken the advice.

But like i originally posted, study the website and do the maths for my weight, and theres no reason the 105 isnt a realistic option.

[cobaltdan 0]

the following is text from our web site:

------

What's the recommended wing loading on a Cobalt?

The Cobalt canopy is an extremely efficient wing. It has the highest measured glide ratio of any skydiving canopy. The extra lift makes for a canopy that flies 'bigger'. To get equal forward speed when comparing to many other canopies you need to load the Cobalt heavier, i.e. 1#/’ on a Sabre should be compared to 1.2#/’ on a cobalt.

1.2-1.4 beginners
1.4-1.6 intermediate
1.6-1.8 high
1.8-2.2 pro
2.2-2.8 extreme
max tested landed wingload 3.6#

NOTE: due to the efficiency of the Cobalt wing, most experienced jumpers will jump a Cobalt 1-2 sizes smaller than competing canopies.

CAUTION: the above are general guidelines of where other Atair canopy owners are loading. It is not our intent to make recommendations to anyone without knowing them and their skills first hand. For a firm recommendation please consult your local Safety and Training Officer or instructor.

---------



btw without knowing anything about your flying skill, i would generally recommend against double down sizing. you should demo one size down at a time and even though you are lightly loading keep in mind that because of your light weight you will be on a relatively small canopy. small canopies at light loadings are higher performance than larger canopy at the same loading due to their shorter line lengths and less resistance in turns.


sincerely,

dan <><>
www.extremefly.com

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[Samurai136 0]

I reviewed your first post. In addition to the technical questions you have about canopy selection you talk about your mindset. Your conservative pilot's mind says, "I can jump this canopy at least 200 more times before downsizing." The impulsive/ adrenaline seeking pilot's mind says, "Go For It! You can Do It!"

Always listen to your conservative judgements. If you move to a smaller canopy to quickly you may find youself in a situation where your conservative judgement says, " This is beginning to look a little too low..." and your impulsive judgement says "Go For It!"

Following your impulse at this point could get you killed under any canopy but more likely under a smaller faster canopy. Or worse, an injury that puts you out of the sport for a period of time. Be patient.


Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[VectorBoy 0]

[Just a guess, but I bet you would probably have to get a smaller container if you go down two sizes to the 105.I would just keep your current main and work on your canopy skills until there is nothing else to get out of it, then consider trading down to a smaller size.
Chuck Blue
D-12501
<><>Team Atair Swoop

[cobaltdan 0]

"fly one size smaller"

this statement refers to the competition cobalt. the h-mod does not fly quite as fast. i would say the h-mod would be similar to 1/2 size faster.

i have never jumped an h-mod bigger than a 95, but i believe the h-mod on a lightly loaded canopy would be noticable just not as dramatic as on a heavy loaded canopy.

sincerely,

dan<><>

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I will agree with Dan on this one. The "feel" will not be altered (in my opinion) on such a lightly loaded canopy. If his canopy were "snapping" him on opening, it would fix that, but he would not get much more benefit out of it at that wingload. The difference between the stock and competiton models really becomes evident at wingloads at 2.0 and higher. The H-mod at about the same level.

Anyway, this is all for naught anyway, as I believe the original poster brought up the matter because he was being pushed in the "smaller is cooler" direction by the uppity freeflyers on his DZ.

Chuck

[rmcvey 0]

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Anyway, this is all for naught anyway, as I believe the original poster brought up the matter because he was being pushed in the "smaller is cooler" direction by the uppity freeflyers on his DZ.

Chuck

Hey, i am the uppity freeflyer at my dz!

but seriouslly, i fully understand the evils involved in fashions and peers and how both sometimes come before safety when choosing kit. But if this was the case i would already be jumping the canopy.

Like i said, ill maybe try the 120 in few months.


Now go and get practicing for the next swoop meet Mr."im too modest and humble to care what others think on my 85 surfing the pond infront of hundreds of people"

HEHe!

Safe ones.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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Now go and get practicing for the next swoop meet Mr."im too modest and humble to care what others think on my 85 surfing the pond infront of hundreds of people"

Dude, my "large" main is a 75 (not counting my StarTrac 1 demo rig) . My roommate jumps the 85 now.

[VectorBoy 0]

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I will agree with Dan on this one. The "feel" will not be altered (in my opinion) on such a lightly loaded canopy. If his canopy were "snapping" him on opening, it would fix that, but he would not get much more benefit out of it at that wingload. The difference between the stock and competiton models really becomes evident at wingloads at 2.0 and higher. The H-mod at about the same level.

Anyway, this is all for naught anyway, as I believe the original poster brought up the matter because he was being pushed in the "smaller is cooler" direction by the uppity freeflyers on his DZ.

Chuck

Ok I was really asking for my greedy self. I have a cobalt 120 @ 1.6 and I'm looking for a little more. Would the H-mod do it while still giving a margin of the standard 120 approach and flare?
No one is pressuring me to downsize. In fact nobody cares but me. A while ago when I was demoing,renting and borrowing any main I could get my paws on in several sizes. I had a dubious flirtation with a cobalt 120 that would do perfect and effortless barrel rolls. I spent a few good days deploying at 13K and just really playing hard with that main and loving it! That canopy was just about new, maybe a handful of jumps.
I have since acquired a cobalt 120 that opens and flys great but it isn't the same. Someone might say its perception and it is all in my head. Other people I have discussed this with say its a result of hand workmanship at Attair, no laser cutting. I do believe it is night and day. Although my new main had about 50 jumps on it when I got it and had its brakes lengthened 1" by its previous owner, I don't think these are reasons enough to account for the difference.
I thought about the H-mod but if it really isn't noticeable on a 120 @1.6 I could just save that cash for more hop& pops from 13K.
I do know its kinda silly to alter a product that performs wonderfully. I may sacrifice one facet to strengthen another. Thanks for indulging the curious.
Glen.