VivaHeadDown 0 #51 September 20, 2002 Just trying to be funny, freeflir29. No need to say you have no fucking clue. Humor is not my strong point. But I do understand normal flight envelope, just disagreed with how you used it. Not saying it was wrong, I just didn't follow what you were getting at. I'm sure we've all had times when we've been reading and posting so much that we should take a break, but just keep right on going like it's a happy little drug. Sleep deprevation makes for wacky reading and posting. :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #52 September 20, 2002 Enough. Keep the thread on target: discussion on the Velocity. Take the back-biting to PM. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #53 September 20, 2002 QuoteI have seen a Xaos drop 1200ft on a 90degree riser to final and believe it could have continued to dive further. I doubt that... Derek jumps a VX60 loaded at 3.1 and he dives 800-900 feet in a 180 hook.. I doubt 1200 feet in a 90 is possible.. Correct me if I am wrong PLEASE... Don't think the Velocity could do it either.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eames 0 #54 September 20, 2002 I understand that you're assuming that he meant that it continued to dive without input, but be creative. Maybe he did dive for 1200 ft.... It would require a LONG, SLOW carve, with both front risers very deep, and nearly symmetrical, but assuming you could hold them down long enough, you could do it on almost ANY canopy. Especially on a canopy that doesn't have a strong tendency to recover into horizontal flight. Now, if you just snap it, and let it up-- it would be improbable to say the least, but I wouldn't say impossible for some canopy at some wing loading (admittedly, only in extreme circumstances with current designs) to dive 1200ft in a 90 degree turn using a single front riser. But to use how much Derek dives during his hook as a unit of measurement is restricting your idea of canopy flight to a very narrow domain. A different way for Samurai136 to report what he might have seen would be, "I have seen a guy flying a Xaos drop 1200ft on a 90 degree riser to final, and I believe that he could have continued to dive it further." I'm just suggesting that there is another very important variable here: the pilot. Put Chuck on Derek's VX 60 @ 3.1 (with weights, I would assume) and you'll see something completely different than what you'd see when Derek hooks. To relate this to what we were talking about before, it's hard to say how much a canopy will plane out-- it's not just a function of the canopy (or the design, or the size, or the wingloading, etc.), far from it (but of course these things play a part). Every time there's a competition, there are new records set, on different types of canopies, by pilots with different styles. We continue to see things that we've never seen before. And there are probably pilots out there that don't compete, that are doing things the rest of us didn't even know were possible. We're not through the experimental phase yet, and nobody knows all the answers. I'm not really arguing with anybody here, just suggesting ideas. Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #55 September 20, 2002 Jason is exactly correct here. Each one of us flies our canopy in a different manner. Hell, I fly each of my personal mains differently since they both fly differently in front risers and have subtlely different "bottom ends". Also, what I prefer as my setup may not work for you at all. Jason is also correct in that competition techniques vary wildly from person to person, and even from event to event by the same person. The turns that would have gotten you to the podium two years ago will not get you in the top 15 this year. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #56 September 20, 2002 Exactly, Chuck said it better than I ever could, every canopy is different every pilot is different and every day is different. Even Derek flies every canopy he jumps differently it just so happens he snap hooks his 60, but that is only 1 canopy he jumps. He tries different techniques on the different canopies that he jumps, then goes with the one that works the best for that canopy for him. Such as the Crossfire2 89 and the Samurai 95 he said those are carving canopies, made to be smoothly carved and had beautiful accurate swoops on both of them. He has his reasons for snapping his 60 and alot has to do with the set up and the speed of the canopy. He has tried carves with the 60 and decided that it was not what worked best for him mostly due to the much higher set up that was needed. So don't pidgeon hole him into one kind of canopy pilot, he is much more well rounded than that. Also don't forget that not every canopy pilot wants the same things out of their canopies, Derek has the 60 for speed pure and simple, nothing more nothing less. He has already said that his next canopy will be bigger and is excited to try Big Air Sportz new crossbrased especially since after only 500 jumps his VX is about to be turned into a kite for me. That kind of WL is very hard on the canopy. btw...he actually has to start his hook by about 1000ft now due to the higher elevation and how much faster the canopies fly up here.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #57 September 22, 2002 I reference Derek and his hooks because he has the longest dive I have ever seen. 1200 feet in a dive doing a 90 degree turn is bs.. SHOW ME VIDEO and I'll believe it. And NO any canopy cannot be dived in using a 90 degree turn and a dive from 1200 feet. It simply isn't possible to hold front risers down that long. The only way I see it possible is at a loading over 3:1.. And that is a MAYBE.. Other than that show me a video. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eames 0 #58 September 23, 2002 QuoteI see everything. "SEGADOR".... Clearly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #59 September 23, 2002 It is possible to hold front risers for way more then 1200 feet, how do you think CRW dawgs warp their canopies? Hold one front and one back.. I've held mine for 700+ before on double fronts and could have held them longer and carved during it if I wanted to. Its not that hard on the right canopy. Something like a Samauri and harness turn away from the turn... that could easily hold a 90 degree turn if its a nice slow, deep carving turn. >I reference Derek and his hooks because he has the longest dive I have ever seen. Did ya look at Team Extreme at WFFC?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #60 September 23, 2002 QuoteI've held mine for 700+ before on double fronts and could have held them longer and carved during it if I wanted to. Its not that hard on the right canopy. Something like a Samauri and harness turn away from the turn... that could easily hold a 90 degree turn if its a nice slow, deep carving turn. That isn't a 1200 foot dive.. I can hang on my front risers for 3000 feet but not in a TRUE dive.. Especially starting with a 90 degree turn. I DID watch team extreme.. Didn't see any of the diving anything near 1200 feet.. Looked like 600-800 feet to me.. And they weren't initiating the dive with a 90 degree turn. They were carving.. Rhino Sam136 QuoteI have seen a Xaos drop 1200ft on a 90degree riser to final and believe it could have continued to dive further. Think this is stretched a bit.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #61 September 23, 2002 >Especially starting with a 90 degree turn. Did he say a snap 90 then a dive? if not it might have been a super slow 90 degree carve from 1200.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #62 September 23, 2002 so what you are saying is that a canopy is not "diving" unless you're pointed straight at the ground? so a carving turn is not actaully diving the canopy? interesting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #63 September 23, 2002 Again quoting Sam136 QuoteSam136 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have seen a Xaos drop 1200ft on a 90degree riser to final and believe it could have continued to dive further. Quoteso what you are saying is that a canopy is not "diving" unless you're pointed straight at the ground? so a carving turn is not actaully diving the canopy? interesting. I didn't say such a thing.. I am referencing the above quote.. About having seen a canopy dive 1200 feet using a 90 degree turn. I DON'T THINK SO... SORRY.. Diving is something I work VERY hard at. I am loading my crossfire2-97 at 1.9 and I can get 500 feet of dive out of a 90-120 if I CRANK it.. In order to get THAT MUCH DIVE from a canopy in a 90 degree turn it would have to be REALLY small.. Again the best diver I've seen is Derek.. I wonder if he thinks a 1200 foot dive using a 90 degree turn is possible?? Sorry guys,., It's bullshit.. Show me the video or call it quits.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #64 September 23, 2002 on my VX 97 (loaded at 2.2 ... distance buddy..heh heh) with a hard snap 180 done at ~550-500 the risers get pulled out of my hands and I surf at ideal, safe altitude. If I start a gradual carve then get steep at the end I could start at 700' ( I find my self low when I am not at the right place and I start gradual and then delay getting steep..weird..totally dependent on high airspeed on this canopy) I have seen my friend wane start his turn on a Xaos 80 from ~800 feet(estimated by pilot) and continue to correct his dive with riser input where my VX/FX risers would have been useless he is loaded about 2.3. My friend Levin can turn his FX 74from about 750' and do a 'death spiral 540' (loaded about 2.2, this is totally impossible on my FX 109 at 2.0 it likes 400' maybe 50 more if gradual carving and can only do a 180-270 with good control) I think it depends on the canopy , the size and the loading. Xaos's have light pressure, Fx and VX very heavy. The smaller the canopy the lighter that pressure is respectively at a given wingloading (i.e 2.0 on a 110 is not same as 2.0 on a 75). loading up a small canopy will in general make it want to dive longer. hooknswoop would start his hooks very high (600ish i think) do a hard 180 and dive like mad then plane out. He was loaded at 3.1. at that loading on a small VX 60 he If he so wanted might be able to put a gradual maneuver that he would start at 1000 feet. On a 'light riser canopy like a Xaos, it seems to reason that a very small one loaded highly would be capable of continuing diving maneuvers at high altitude. Of course It could depend on what your definition of the word "DIVE" is. "Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #65 September 23, 2002 Possible.. It would have to be VERY small and HIGHLY loaded.. I had a Xaos98 and the front riser pressure was much higher than my xf2-97.. Just a note.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eames 0 #66 September 23, 2002 Rhino, are you the strongest man on earth? Why is it so hard for you to believe that a person could hold his canopy in a dive (i.e. anything steeper than the natural glide angle) for 1200 ft whilst carving 90 degrees? You kill me.... By the way, how many jumps did you put on that Xaos? How current were you? Just curious. Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #67 September 23, 2002 Anyone can hang on the risers for 1200 feet slightly steepening the dive angle.. I don't think that is what Sam was implying.. I was very current when I jumped the Xaos. I put 2 hop-n-pops on it from 14,000 feet and sent it back. I've been under the crossfire2 ever since. Quote(i.e. anything steeper than the natural glide angle) He said DROP 1200 feet.. Let's be clear on the language not giving people the wrong impression of what a canopy will do and how easy it is. Let's try and keep it real shall we.. This thread is far enough off track.. Maybe a velocity at 3:1 can dive 1200 feet in a 90 degree turn Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eames 0 #68 September 23, 2002 QuoteI can hang on my front risers for 3000 feet but not in a TRUE dive.. Especially starting with a 90 degree turn. So holding both front risers isn't diving? For that matter-- just flying in natural glide isn't diving? Okay, okay, for argument's sake, let's say that natural glide is neutral.... If you pull the chord-line of your canopy closer to the angle of the imaginary line that crosses through you and the center of mass of the earth by pulling both front risers, what are you doing? Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #69 September 23, 2002 Geez. What a Bee's nest I stirred up. By 'drop' I meant my impression was 'Jesus Christ that's Fast!' 1200' is the altitude the pilot told me he made the turn at. My opinion is that the Xaos dove faster and started higher than a VX84 turned 210 degrees from about 800' and surfed further. I've watched my AFF inst. surf his VX a lot. But I know how my eyes play tricks on me. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #70 September 23, 2002 LOL, Thanks for the clarification.. Out of curiosity who was flying the Xaos and at what loading? Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
