PhillyKev 0 #26 October 8, 2002 QuoteNewbie here....what is biff-in??? Didn't you ever see the original Batman tv show? Remember the little pop up cartoon words during a fight? *POW* *KAZAAM* *BIFF* Get the picture? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #27 October 8, 2002 QuoteI wouldn't rely on the ripples in the pond at Xkeys. It has trees and trailers on one side which effect the wind in that immediate area. The winds have a good chance of being different in the middle of the field. Dude, thanks a lot for clarifying that. I forgot about the trailers and the fuel tank by the pond. It's been a while since I've jumped there. QuoteYou should almost always be able to see the socks at 1000'. At that point, decide on your pattern. You don't always have to do a downwind, base, final pattern. If you're at 1000' and see that you are already downwind, then hang out in that area (slightly off the wind line for others coming in) doing some S turns until you can do your base and/or final. Just watch out for traffic that is coming in to land. There's many times I've been on a long downwind spot and my entire pattern is one big final. That's the problem. Ideally, I would like to see the socks at above 1000ft just in case I'm too far upwind or too far downwind. If I can't see the sock until 1000ft and I'm downwind at least I'm in the right track and I can get up to my desired setup point. However, if I'm upwind at 1000ft I have a greater chance of screwing up everyone else's pattern if I have to do figure 8's or s-turns. Also, there's probably a greater chance of colliding with another canopy. I know you can't be perfect all the time to do your square pattern but if I'm going to master canopy control, I've got to be on the money at least 85% of the time. However, I know and will always keep in mind, safety first for myself and other canopies. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #28 October 8, 2002 QuoteIf I can't see the sock until 1000ft and I'm downwind at least I'm in the right track and I can get up to my desired setup point. However, if I'm upwind at 1000ft I have a greater chance of screwing up everyone else's pattern if I have to do figure 8's or s-turns. Also, there's probably a greater chance of colliding with another canopy. Actually, you want to be upwind at 1000' to begin your downwind leg. Your set up point should be upwind of the target. If you are downwind at 1000', you want to stay in that area until you drop to the altitude to begin your base or final. Move off the wind line a little bit an be aware of traffic coming in. But remember, vertical separation is just as good, if not better than horizontal separation. If you're downwind at 1000', the people coming in on final at that point will be several hundred feet below you. Just don't make any radical moves or drop your altitude too quickly with spirals. And always keep your head on a swivel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #29 October 8, 2002 QuoteCan this be morally correct to do such a thing? What is immoral? Sometimes it's more important to get everyone landing in the SAME direction than it is to have them landing upwind. A downwind or crosswind landing in light winds isn't (or shouldn't) be a big deal. QuoteI mean, if you're at least 1000 ft apart (below or above another skydiver in canopy flight) that you can turn back into the wind. If you're in the pattern then you had better fly the pattern. If there's a smaller, faster canopy 1000ft above you he can close that gap in a matter of seconds. If you suddenly change the pattern you could kill him, and you. Nico - You're coming across as being terrified of the downwind or crosswind landing. Realize that you can do it, understand that at some point you should learn how to do it. Which would you rather do? * Injure or kill yourself or another jumper because you changed the pattern while in the pattern and had a collision? * Injure or kill yourself or another jumper because you landed upwind while everyone else was landing downwind? * Injure or kill yourself because you turned low to land into the wind? * Injure or kill yourself because you turned into an obstacle trying to land into the wind? * Get your jumpsuit dirty and look silly for a few minutes while you PLF after a downwind landing? I realize you've had some bad landings in the past, but the reality is that not every landing will be in ideal circumstances and it seems that that's what you're after. Talk to your instructors about landing downwind or crosswind, talk to your instructors about landing off, talk to your instructors about landing safely in ALL conditions. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andrewstewart 0 #30 October 8, 2002 I completely agree with Jim{bo}. First man down sets the pattern. If you don't like the landing direction, land away from the main landing area. I once visited a DZ in which seemingly everybody landed in different directions - I'll *never* jump there. - Andrew Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #31 October 8, 2002 On low wind days... its common to find a lot of people shooting downwinders on purpose. They usually are not in the center of the landing area, but I used to use the low wind days to practice my crosswinders and downwinders. I also would carve on those days. Just because everyone is not going 100% into the wind does not mean much if the winds are low.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #32 October 9, 2002 QuoteWhat is immoral? Sometimes it's more important to get everyone landing in the SAME direction than it is to have them landing upwind. A downwind or crosswind landing in light winds isn't (or shouldn't) be a big deal. This is what I respect about the forums. Newbies like myself learn a great deal from people like you. This cardinal rule has been embedded in my mind already. QuoteIf you're in the pattern then you had better fly the pattern. If there's a smaller, faster canopy 1000ft above you he can close that gap in a matter of seconds. If you suddenly change the pattern you could kill him, and you. You're absolutely right about that. However, if I'm the last one off the load and everyone's grounded after I pull. Also, the next load will not take off until the previous load's jumpers are on the ground. Hence, since I pull at about 5500ft and jump with a 240-260 can I be the exception to this rule if there are no more canopies in the air besides me or does it still apply? Of course, I wouldn't even fathom to do this if I'm not the last one out the plane and if there are other canopies on the ground. Can't the only guy in the air after everyone is grounded, do whatever he wants? QuoteNico - You're coming across as being terrified of the downwind or crosswind landing. Realize that you can do it, understand that at some point you should learn how to do it. Dude....Hell yeah! I had freaked out in my last downwind landing. The winds were blowing at 15mph and I kept looking at the ground because I was coming in so fast. My depth perception was off. My knees were locked. I came in so fast and wasn't paying attention, flared at 5 feet and tried to PLF but I was too stiff. I did two forward hand springs and broke my middle meta carpel bone in my right hand, tore ligaments in my knee and ankle and chip two fragments in my ankle. Needless to say, I learned a lot from that incident. I learned from my instructors that I can at least do 1/4 brakes at 20ft and flare the rest of the way while watching my forward speed and sink rate. When I am ready and relaxed, I would like to practice this for real. QuoteWhich would you rather do? * Injure or kill yourself or another jumper because you changed the pattern while in the pattern and had a collision? * Injure or kill yourself or another jumper because you landed upwind while everyone else was landing downwind? * Injure or kill yourself because you turned low to land into the wind? * Injure or kill yourself because you turned into an obstacle trying to land into the wind? * Get your jumpsuit dirty and look silly for a few minutes while you PLF after a downwind landing? No to everything else. Yes to the last one. QuoteI realize you've had some bad landings in the past, but the reality is that not every landing will be in ideal circumstances and it seems that that's what you're after. Talk to your instructors about landing downwind or crosswind, talk to your instructors about landing off, talk to your instructors about landing safely in ALL conditions. I know we don't live in a perfect world. However, if I cannot do a square or rectangle landing approach 85% of the time then I will never grasp the concept of good canopy control. I will definitely talk to my instructors about how to approach downwind and crosswind and landing off the DZ. Man! There is so much more to Skydiving and you just never stop learning. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely fun learning in the process. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #33 October 9, 2002 QuoteI completely agree with Jim{bo}.First man down sets the pattern. If you don't like the landing direction, land away from the main landing area. Definitely. I think more than 10 people have said this to me. QuoteI once visited a DZ in which seemingly everybody landed in different directions - I'll *never* jump there. That sucks dude. Did you lodge a complaint with the DZ owner or post that in the comments for the DZ? How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #34 October 9, 2002 QuoteOn low wind days... its common to find a lot of people shooting downwinders on purpose. They usually are not in the center of the landing area, but I used to use the low wind days to practice my crosswinders and downwinders. That's actually a great suggestion. How low is low wind? 0-5mph? I would definitely like to try this. In X-Keys, the swoopers, faster canopies and tandems land east, closer to the hanger. Students land towards the center and west of the hanger. I think the landing area is about 3000 square feet. I would never do it but there is usually a nil chance of a collision happeing there. I mean of course, Murphy's law exist but I haven't heard of any canopy collisions out there. Believe you me I'm not about to break that trend either. QuoteI also would carve on those days. Just because everyone is not going 100% into the wind does not mean much if the winds are low. I hear ya, well.....whether if its into the wind or not I must follow the pattern. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #35 October 9, 2002 QuoteAlso, the next load will not take off until the previous load's jumpers are on the ground. That's not true at all. Many times one plane is letting jumpers out right after the other. And the planes are often taking off when jumpers are under canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #36 October 9, 2002 Quote That's actually a great suggestion. How low is low wind? 0-5mph? I would definitely like to try this. In X-Keys, the swoopers, faster canopies and tandems land east, closer to the hanger. Students land towards the center and west of the hanger. I think the landing area is about 3000 square feet. I would never do it but there is usually a nil chance of a collision happeing there. I mean of course, Murphy's law exist but I haven't heard of any canopy collisions out there. Believe you me I'm not about to break that trend either. better watch that one, too, with the pond closer to the middle of the field now, the approach area on that side of the landing area may be "hot" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #37 October 9, 2002 QuoteThat's not true at all. Many times one plane is letting jumpers out right after the other. And the planes are often taking off when jumpers are under canopy. I stand corrected then. I shall always follow the same pattern as everyone else. No matter what. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #38 October 9, 2002 Quote better watch that one, too, with the pond closer to the middle of the field now, the approach area on that side of the landing area may be "hot" Point taken. Just like everything else in my skydive. I will proceed with caution having others safety as well as my own saftey in mind. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #39 October 16, 2002 I did my next jump after my recert on Columbus Day. The freefall was okay. I was mostly psyched about pulling at 5500 to put my book learned canopy skills to the test. After everyone pounded following the leader for a landing pattern in my head, I did just that. I was at my approached my selected holding area and instead of watching the windsock I kept a sharp watch on the two canopies below me. I played followed the leader. To my good fortune, it was exactly how I planned my pattern legs. Therefore, everything went off without a hitch. Last but not least, thanks to Doug F. and D. Pancake for giving me last minute tips on the plane. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
