Trouble with cobalt

[billdo 0]

I just recently got a new cobalt 120 and have had mixed feelings. I bought the 120 because at the time I was also thinking about getting a Stilleto 135, but Cobalt suggests the slightly higher loading so I went with the 120.

After ordering the Cobalt I borrowed a friend's Stil 120 and put about 110 jumps on it during the 10+ weeks it took to get my cobalt, and by that time sort of wished I should just by my buddy's Stil 120, because I was loving it, the openings seemed almost "two-stage" and NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEMS on the openings!

Still, I thought the cobalt 120 (being comparable to a Stil 135) would be smart for me to "upsize" to since I only have 450 jumps and load it highly anyway, about 1.9

The first few openings with my cobalt were superb. I bought a special 24" ZP Kazer PC just like Atair recommends. I dumped in a track like they say to. Then I got slammed! Hard. This made me a little gun-shy so to speak, and I went back to cupping air and deploying normally.

Cobalt says doing this will result in a standard "one-stage" type opening. Well, the openings are sloooow, and the slider stays up a long time (800-1100 feet), 1/7 jumps I get maybe 1 or 2 twists and the other day spun the thing up and had to chop it as it was spiraling and was twisted to the risers, VERY MUCH LIKE THE VIDEO OF THE GUY WITH THE CHAOS TROUBLE posted in this forum!

I honestly admit I am probably doing something wrong and want a cobalt expert to help me out. I love the way the thing flies once opened. All my troubles are on opening. I need to learn what I'm doing wrong, but I'm getting a little discouraged since the Stilleto seemed so F-ing reliable, and I loaded that thing just as high! I obviously was doing the same things on deployment with that canopy.


Any suggestions will be appreciated and listened to.

Thanks

[PhreeZone 20]

110 jumps in 10 weeks.. nice! But I'm wondering why did you get a 1.9 at under 300 jumps at the time. On a side note I'm wondering what your STA thinks of your canoy choice.

As for the canopy, I jumped a Cobalt for a while and 800 feet is stretching it to the max on its snivel. There is a rant on this from only a few weeks ago that even Dan said that Cobalt's don't take a 1000 feet unless they are mod'ed to. 500-600 is more like a Cobalt and 700 is a long snivel.

Don't dump in a dead track, but slow down a little bit, arch hard right before throwing the PC, and keep the hips level and sholders level durnig opening. Don't reach for the risers till the slider is moving, don't steer too much with the legs, only a bump or two is needed to fly the opening. Make sure you are having at least 12-16 inches of slack line in the container at packing, you might want to try a 26 inch PC and killing a lot of the forward speed for the first jump or two also. I found on mine I could control the openings a lot by the slider placement. Leaving too much hanging out was leading to fast openings, the same if there was'nt enough exposed. Once I started leaving 2 inches at the bottom hanging out and the rest properly tucked and about 10 rolls in the tail... smooth as silk.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[roq 0]

I know some skydivers that began to jump Still load for 1.5/1.6 after they have 150 jumps and in the 300 following jumps they made 4 cut ways because line twists.
Even with a cobalt 1.9 is load exaggerated for only 300 jumps, and I believe that only for luck and care excess due to the little experience you didn't have unpleasant surprises with the Still.
Experience, proficiency and knowledge doesn't buy himself with the canopys. Is necessary to gradually develop for not "tripping" when fewer is waited.

roq

[cobaltdan 0]

please read the faq page on our web site. it has a lot of geat information that you may not know.

beyond that if your openings are fine but occasionally have a suprise, check your packing (or your hand placement during opening(read the faq page)). rolling the tail tight is important and most often ignored. grab the tail about 1.5 ' down from the lines when propacking and roll >tight< you should be able to roll at least 10 times. keep control of the tail through the rest of the pack job, i.e. dont throw it down and pack in such a way that it unrolls under your cacoon.

if you think your openings are too slow. my sugestion is their probably not and simply get used to them and enjoy. or if you need to speed the opening simply touch your rear risers.

as far as twists immediately check your links. level them and the canopy will always fly stable and straight.

let me know.

sincerely,

dan<><>

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[rgoper 0]

  Quote

as far as twists immediately check your links. level them and the canopy will always fly stable and straight.

Dan:

i've experienced the very same characteristics on my Cobalt 170. my links are straight, always have been. the last jump, i had such severe line twists, i had to cut-away and deploy reserve. i've read all of the procedures for deployment. i'd sure hate to see what would happen if you had to dump in an emergency situation, what would we have then. this canopy has slammed me more than once to, worse than a Sabre, i've rolled the nose the whole 9 yards, and i have constant end cell closure, not bad mouthing Cobalt, just looking for answers. i had the Jim Cazar 24" pc installed as per Cobalt specs. i have never owned a canopy so unpredictable on deployment. 475 jumps, 30th jump on my Cobalt and cha-chink. other than that the landing perfromance, turns riser response etc...is great.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Zennie 0]

I only have a few jumps on a Cobalt, so I'm not expert on Cobalt opening characteristics by any stretch, but I think sometimes people are too quick to blame a piece of equipment when things go wrong.

And before I go any further, I'm not saying these things aren't caused by equipment. All I'm saying is one should definitively rule out other causes before doing so.

For starters, as wingloadings get higher, elliptical canopies will be more prone to spin-ups & hard openings. They become much more sensitive to minor packing errors and especially body position.

Yes, I'm starting to agree with the Packer's Mantra. All it takes is a dropped shoulder (from looking up, an unstable pitch, reaching early for the rear risers, whatever) and the risers are now uneven. Now you've induced a turn. You can see where it goes from there.

Packing the main asymmetrically can cause one side to inflate slightly earlier than the other. This will also induce a turn, and thus a spin.

Off heading openings are baaaad juju in BASE. I'm learning just how sensitive canopies are to poor packing and body position.

I'm willing to bet that all of my off-headings have been my own damn fault. Most likely from poor body position at deployment (I'm usually pretty anal about symmetry while packing).

Again, I'm not saying these things are the case here, I'm just making a cautionary note.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[imdskydiver 0]

I have about 300 jumps on a Cobalt 120 at a wing loading of about 1.8 , I have been slammed only once , I feel that it was a slider problem , Since then I always make sure it is all the way up to the gromets and the tail rolled tightly (About 10 times ) to make sure it stays there , I have had nothing but soft openings since then.

[JJohnson 0]

I too have a Cobalt 120, loaded at about 1.6. I have noticed that this canopy requires my attention during opening. At LP this year I dumped with one soulder way low and I knew as I did it line twists were the result. I grabbed the risers, pulled on them and evened the pressure out. The Cobalt came out of the spinning dive immediatley, flew level and allowed me to kick out of the twists.
After playing with this canopy over the summer I came up with the following rules, which may vary as I know every canopy has its own quirks.

1) Pack it neatly, even though I have trash packed it without incident.

2) At first I thought the openings were slow, which I hate. I am using a 24 inch pilot chute as suggested. Plus I pack the canopy loose. I do not push the nose in or roll the tail tight.
During the two stage opening, the slider is up for what seems to be a longer time than other canopies...expect my Crossfire. But the Cobalt does have the center cells inflated, slowing you down.
I finally watched my wrist mount during the entire opening, from throw out until I was in the saddle. To my surprise it took 500 feet, maybe 600. I have checked this more than once and result was the same.

3) During the opening, keep your hands off the risers. If you are going to smack the risers to open it quicker, aborting the two stage opening make sure you hit them equally. Stay symetrical during the opening. Most of my openings have been on heading. At worst 90 degrees off. Two times I have had line twists, both times I was able to pull a riser and level the canopy out.

I had a buddy of mine, for whatever his reasons were kind of follow me. He tracked above me and off to the right and eatched me dump. I did not know he was there. After I opened he fell under me and dumped. No close call at all, but I would have felt better if I had known in advance he was going to do it. Anyway, when we got down he asked me if my opening was a slammer cause he could not believe how fast the Cobalt opened.
I have not dumped in a full track yet, nor from a sit either. I have dumped without burning off much speed from a track, like I would with other canopies and I have never been slammed. To date I have been impressed with the Cobalt and enjoy it. I hope you figure your problems out and get results that you can enjoy as well. I put a few jumps on a Stilleto 135 and I was not impressed. Flare I thought was weak and the opening was quite the snivel.
Currently I am looking at getting another rig. I sold my old Racer and miss having two rigs. For my canopy choice I am hard pressed to decide. I'd like to go to a Comp. Cobalt, Atair's Onyx after jumping it or......a Samurai or Brian's new Sensei once it's out. If you want the ultimate in fast soft opening try a Samurai. It will freak you out.
Hope this helps,
JJ

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[underdog 0]

i have 300 jumps on my cobalt 120 and i also load it at 1.8 to one. i am a vidiot and i love jumping this canopy with a camera. it slammed me a couple of times after i first got it but then i figured out were it liked the slider to be when packed and it has been great ever since.

like any highly loaded eliptical a good body position at pull time is a must.
also each individual canopy has a certain way it likes to be packed. once you learn how that is i think your gonna be suprised.

any way, have fun

"just my opinion and you know what those are like"

[Ron 10]

All I am gonna say is this.....
Higher wingloadings cause higher problems.
It is shocking to me how many people are jumping highly loaded canopies without high jump numbers.

Under 500 jumps and a 1.8 wingloading?!?!?!?!?
I am I nuts here to think that it is to high of a wingloading for under 500 jumps?

I have 2,500 jumps,
I have a Stiletto 107 at 1.77
Sabre 107 at 1.77
and Velocity 96. at 1.97
Had a 88 Extreme at 2.1
put several jumps on a 69 at 2.7
34 jumps on a T-10 at .172
It does not suprise me that people are having problems.
I personally don't think that most people can handle ALL aspects (Opening, Flying, Awareness, Malfuction rate/speed)of a high performance canopy with so few jumps.

Soapbox mode off

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[roq 0]

I have more than 600 jumps with Atair canopys below 100 sft (Cobalt and Impulse) load from 2 to 2.3 and some jumps with 120.
I never had any hard opening
I never needed to cut because line twists. I just once cut, but because I opened a togle unintentionally with line twists.
I think when more low wing-loading, more low hard sipining possibility.
I consider the canopys Atair the best than there is all over the world in opennings and in flight.
In my pack job I have been taking care with the placement of the slider. I quartered slider with a slider lip with 3" width out of the center cel, I think that is very important to avoid hard openings.
For better two stage openings work, I roll the nose of 4 out cell 1/2 turn for center (not inside center cell). The center cell is open.
I don't push the nose inside. I only push the nose soft inside for to adjust and to be centered in pack job.
I make 1 inch line stows. The 1 inch line stows (with low tight ruber bands) is good idea because low weigh and logical low inertia of the small canopys
like the 85 cobalt.
400 jumps ago I use tapes for ruber bands inner the bag. See Jumpshack site
In normal pack job I roll the tail 5 turns.
In " type psico-pack" don't roll the tail and pack job. For put inside bag I use normal S.Fold. .(it pack job is the better).
I use 21 " ZP pilot chute for 85, is better
I use normal ruber bands Mil. spec. with two turns in bag tapes and one turn in stow lines.
For low speed openings ( I jump normaly 3500 to 4000 ft when launch static line students I put my head a bit down in opening)
I put centered body and relax position in all openings

roq

[billdo 0]

***Under 500 jumps and a 1.8 wingloading?!?!?!?!?
I am I nuts here to think that it is to high of a wingloading for under 500 jumps?

I have 2,500 jumps,

  Quote

With all due respect... Well, the wing loading is very high I will admit for my number of jumps - I have definitely down-sized "aggressively." However, a stilletto 120 was a sick crazy "state-of-the-art" canopy 10 or 12 years ago and you were an expert just to be jumping one. The sport has definitely evolved a lot in a small time from what I gather. Just wait 'til kids trained in tunnels hit the air at 18 with already several hours of freefall under their belts.

There is beginning to be a lot of "experience" gained the hard way from others that younger jumpers can now use for their own safety and benefit. Also, always consider the time period in which a certain "# of jumps" was performed, because currency is very important in this sport, I think especially with canopy skills. And don't forget, canopies don't kill people, the people flying them kill themselves. I will head your warnings and be safe.
Blue Skies
Thanks

• Quote

[PhreeZone 20]

>And don't forget, canopies don't kill people

Ever hear of the Nova?

Time in sport is just as important as currency. Those that have been around for years and watched the fatility reports read like a xerox each month "Person downsized rapidly and was injured/killed fairly recently after downsizing" or "Rapid downsizing to a wingloading the manufactor considers to be higher then expert level left this person with a canopy that they quickly lost control of", have learned their lesson and don't take downsiing lightly.With the ever increasing trend for fairly new jumpers (<600) to hook it in on a botched hook or on accident on a highly loaded canopy... I'm surprized the USPA has'nt tried to tell people they can't jumpm certian canopies.

As for the stiletto being 10 years old... its just as eay to end up dead under a stiletto now as it was then. Canopy training has not kept pace with the canopy designs.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[weid14 0]

[replyWith all due respect... Well, the wing loading is very high I will admit for my number of jumps - I have definitely down-sized "aggressively." However, a stilletto 120 was a sick crazy "state-of-the-art" canopy 10 or 12 years ago and you were an expert just to be jumping one. The sport has definitely evolved a lot in a small time from what I gather. Just wait 'til kids trained in tunnels hit the air at 18 with already several hours of freefall under their belts.

There is beginning to be a lot of "experience" gained the hard way from others that younger jumpers can now use for their own safety and benefit. Also, always consider the time period in which a certain "# of jumps" was performed, because currency is very important in this sport, I think especially with canopy skills. And don't forget, canopies don't kill people, the people flying them kill themselves. I will head your warnings and be safe.
Blue Skies
Thanks

[parachutist 2]

  Quote

Under 500 jumps and a 1.8 wingloading?!?!?!?!?

Soapbox mode off

Ron

well.. 40 jumps from now he will be eligible to become a tandem master... if 500 jumps means that he is able to take someone else's life into his own hands, then I believe it should also mean that he is able at this point to be taught how to fly a high performance canopy. He does need some lessons drawn out on a chalkboard, + some 1:1 under-canopy instruction.

Devil's advocate mode off
Chris

[Ron 10]

Ok, back on my soapbox....

A 1.7 loaded anything...will still kill you if you mess up.
We have had cars alot longer that skydiving. Teenagers still kill themselves with fast cars....and the cars are safer....period.

I went out and got myself a 1.4 loaded Stiletto years ago....back when there were waivers to get them. I had 370 jumps. I was VERY current, have a pilots license (so I know about flying stuff) and had been jumping a 97. Alot of people told me I was crazy and was going to die....Hah, what do they know. I went right out and got my 1.4 loaded Stiletto...and my first weekend I hooked it right smack dab into the ground....Damn that sucked.

I didn't do any serious damage..man was I lucky. If it had been the 97 (1.7), I would have been hurt/killed.

As for the comment about tunnel rats....Where have you been?
Tunnel rats have come of age long ago....I know of one guy who used to work at Pigeon Forge, that was awsome in the Air....He also thought he should be able to handle canopies....he hooked himself into the ground....ALOT...I am still amazed he is not dead...He doesn't jump anymore that I know of....Hospitals suck, and he got tired of living in them.

My friend and piece partner was a tunnel rat....he is dead now. 1000 jumps, no main, and no reserve. He was great in the Air, but somehow forgot to stop the skydive.....

It is not about can you fly it, it is about can you handle it when the shit hits the fan. High loading canopies mal more (line twists...ect), the mal is much more violent, you lose altitude much quicker, and you have to think faster.
What do you do if someone turns in front of you at 100 feet?
Think quick, and act right, or you are dead.

As for training...yep it has gotten better. But people still die from having an ego larger than their skill level.

And thats just fatalities.....how about people who hurt themselves so bad that they never fully recover?

How about just breaking a femur and the cost (time off from work/medical expenses/strain on a family) of the accident?

Most of these never get reported. But they happen almost every month.

Why let it be you?

Can you land that 1.8 loaded canopy in a 10 meter circle 10 times out of 10? How about with different approaches? Lets say 2 straight in, 2 90 turn's, 2 180 turn's, 2 270 turn's, and 2 360 turn's???? I can do it with my 107's, thats why I now have the 96 Velocity. Hell,I just requalified for my PRO with my 96 Velocity.

As I have always said....."You can jump something smaller if you live through the canopy you have now"

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[RichM 0]

  Quote

As for training...yep it has gotten better. But people still die from having an ego larger than their skill level.

And thats just fatalities.....how about people who hurt themselves so bad that they never fully recover?

How about just breaking a femur and the cost (time off from work/medical expenses/strain on a family) of the accident?

Most of these never get reported. But they happen almost every month.

Why let it be you?

Can you land that 1.8 loaded canopy in a 10 meter circle 10 times out of 10? How about with different approaches? Lets say 2 straight in, 2 90 turn's, 2 180 turn's, 2 270 turn's, and 2 360 turn's???? I can do it with my 107's, thats why I now have the 96 Velocity. Hell,I just requalified for my PRO with my 96 Velocity.

As I have always said....."You can jump something smaller if you live through the canopy you have now"

Why would doing 360s be a good basic skill to learn prior to downsizing?

I don't think jump numbers matter for as much as some people think. Joe boring Bloggs doing 5,000 canopy flights under a huge round and always in perfect conditions does not make a good candidate for downsizing to a VX 60 at 3:1. Evaluation of flying skills can only be done on a person by person basis and a talented individual could downsize rapidly should that be what he/she wants to do and his/her coach agrees, while still maintaining a sensible margin for error. I feel that is important that these people understand the risks associated and make an informed decision, but as adults we should be free to do that, and accepting the consequences when things go wrong is a part of that decision making process.


As the sport evolves the learning curve for previously god like skills will become shorter and shorter. Look at any other sport, what world champs were doing 10 years ago, club performers are doing now. Mostly this is because we have had the time to distill their hard won learnings to a structured course or even passing conversation; rather than just learning it from scratch ourselves.

There will always be people willing to risk more and push the edge of envelope, with the increased risks. What they do now the club performer may be doing in 10 years. This is a frontier sport, enjoyed by people who enjoy taking risks. I'd personally prefer it was left that way.

Rich M

[underdog 0]

  Quote

Under 500 jumps and a 1.8 wingloading?!?!?!?!?
I am I nuts here to think that it is to high of a wingloading for under 500 jumps?

uhmmm dude chill...... i said 300 or so 0n a cobalt 120. i have a total of 1311 spread out over the cobalt, a stilleto 135, batwing 170,saber 170 various student canopies...... and oh yes 36 on t-10's also courtesy of uncle sam.

as far as your soap box rant i do agree with it... i just wish you would check your facts before you climb up on it.

oh yeah i forgot a couple on a crossfire 2- 99

[underdog 0]

oops, just went and checked billdo's profile.
my apologies if you were refering to him

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

  Quote

All I am gonna say is this.....
Under 500 jumps and a 1.8 wingloading?!?!?!?!?
I am I nuts here to think that it is to high of a wingloading for under 500 jumps?

The person you responded to has well over the 300 jumps on the Cobalt he is talking about. Still, like he responded back to you, your rant is appropriate in all other ways. Thankfully, those "must immediately downsize" types are starting to realize that those of us on the canopy tour have primarily upsized this year and are jumping lower wingloads in competition. The marginally lower wingloads lend themselves better to longer distance and far better rear riser control and transitions.

Chuck
<><>Team Atair

3130 jumps and a 2.2-2.3 wingload in case anyone was wondering.

[Ron 10]

Chuck...Underdog,

I was talking about Bildo's 450 jumps.....not Underdogs...
I understand that there are people with the skills to be able to handle high wingloadings....But I bet most have been jumping awhile, and learned what they needed in small steps.

There needs to be progressive steps to downsizing...I don't see how you can go from Student to 1.8 in 450 jumps.

As for why the 360 turns....If you can't do them then you don't really know all aspects of the canopy you are flying...Why not learn all you can about the wing you have before you start learning a new one? One that reduces the margin of error, and increases the danger?

Oh well I am done with this....

Get a 46 and hook yourself crazy...I hope you live, but it is your choice.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[underdog 0]

yeah i realized that after i responded.... so i guess i should check my facts before i climb up

i do agree with you, i put about 600 jumps on the batwing before i downsized...

my personal opinion is you should learn how to surf with a bigger canopy before you have to surf with a little one. in other words it should be the pilot skills and not canopy design.

blue skies and rant on if it involves safety

[TIJ 0]

All good information here. Pushing your current canopy to the limit, before you downsize is the best advice given. You never know when you may have to abort a landing or make that low turn close to ground to avoid something. That's why people should practicing more flat turns up high. I've seen a lot of jumpers set up on final, and that's it. People should keep in mind that there will be a day when you have to turn close to the ground.
Anyway, as far as this debate goes I feel there's an element that everyone is overlooking and it's called talent or innate ability, some people are able to pick up on canopy fight quicker than others. Before we bad mouth people for their downsizing decsions, perhaps we should at least give them the benefit of the doubt to be familiar with their ability. I've seen this guy land a canopy and while not being stupid he does push the canopy. Downwind, cross-wind, aborted landings to be safe, the majority all stand-ups. In addition, currency is not everything, but 500 jumps in one year does speak volumes for the level of commitment and dedication to the sport. While your decision to downsize is an aggressive one and probably too much for others with similar experience, I don' t think it's outside of your ability.

[parachutist 2]

  Quote

I don't see how you can go from Student to 1.8 in 450 jumps.

Ron

The way I have managed it successfully thus far (2.2 wing loading at 550 jumps) was by concentrating on canopy flight. I dumped right out the door, 12k, about 50% my jumps. Besides that I spent time at canopy control seminars learning everything I ever wanted to know about stalls, turbulence, riser inputs, flat turns, etc etc.

I'm at about the skill level of an average 200-jump person in the RW skills area because I have little time in freefall. But in contrast I have spent more time under canopy than the average 1,500-jump person.

Safely downsizing this quickly is plausible but it pretty much takes devotion to one discipline: canopy control.

Chris

[VectorBoy 0]

I purchased a cobalt 120 from a guy with three times as many jumps as me. He would fall into everyones catagory of jump #s as just about ready to handle that canopy based only on jump numbers. It was new with less than fifty jumps on it in his custom colors so I asked why he was getting rid of it. Fact was he wasn't comfortable jumping it so he bought a sabre2 one size bigger. After watching him jump the sabre2 for a week I understood why he felt he was over his head on the cobalt . Before he sold it to me he asked if was comfortable on the cobalt, I said I'd had many demos and loved that canopy and yes I was comfortable on it.
I take advise when people approve or disapprove of something they have seen done in person, but jump numbers alone haven't proven anything.
Some incidents have been reported as a partial result of early downsizing, when in fact we are talking about one size down on a docile design and the results were simple judgement. loaded at 1.2 or 1.3 isn't the issue if a persons awareness isn't along for the ride. Glen