Leaning Foward!

[freeflyz 0]

When i come out of my hook i lean foward and end up popping back up?I did't it once and did not pop back up,and got i farther surf! So when do i start leaning foward?

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Not sure about anyone else, but I start laying on my chest strap as soon as start "coming around the corner" and pushing on my rears.

Chuck

[RichM 0]

Why does this technique work? Any idea's?

Rich M

[AggieDave 6]

For one, at those speeds, arching forward in your harness helps you cut through the air.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[bobsoutar 0]

For two, it gets your weight positioned better under the canopy.

[skreamer 1]

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arching forward in your harness helps you cut through the air.

Could you please elaborate on "cut through the air"? I understand what Bob said about getting your weight further forward under the canopy, but don't understand this cutting through the air business.

Will

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Quite simply, we try to minimize the parasitic drag our bodies produce under canopy. One does not attempt to swoop (in competition) in a baggy freefly or bootie suit, all extended out in the typical student "gumby" mode. It slows you down, PLUS it looks stupid.

Chuck

[RichM 0]

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For two, it gets your weight positioned better under the canopy.

Please can you elaborate on this? Wouldn't the body merely swing around the 3 ring attachment point so that the centre of mass is exactly below the attachment point irrelevent of the body shape? (CoM fractionally in front of that position in the surf, given the canopy is creating more drag than the suspended body).

Rich M

[skreamer 1]

Sure, I can understand that the clothes you wear can create drag (which is why swimmers wear speedos not baggy shorts). And I understood Bob's point about putting your weight forward. But to say that you lean forward to "cut through the air" seems like a load of bollocks to me.

Will

[gus 1]

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But to say that you lean forward to "cut through the air" seems like a load of bollocks to me.

I wonder what Skreamer's opinion on this is.....
Perhaps it's the same as arching in freefall, you're creating a more streamlined shape that will move through the air more easily...?

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[bobsoutar 0]

Not exactly sure of the physics but I think what you are saying would be correct if the rings were directly above you and not situated in front of the body.

I'm sure there is a good explanation involving levers, pulleys and fulcrums but essentially, since you are applying brakes and/or rear risers your body position will change as a result.

What you are trying to achieve is to fly the body directly under the front portion of the canopy throughout the surf.

Pulling toggles in a de-arched body position will move your weight backwards. You will get better results if you arch forwards and pull your toggles with your hands/arms to the rear.

[AggieDave 6]

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But to say that you lean forward to "cut through the air" seems like a load of bollocks to me.

Try something, go up on a solo jump, exit the plane and de-arch, hard, be flat. I bet you slow down. Now arch, you'll speed up nicely. Pro-level swoopers regularly enter their swoop at well over 45mph, many times on the upwards of 60mph, at those speed there is a noticeable difference between being flat and "arching" (leaning their chest forward) in the harness. Same with their legs, they'll have their legs up, creating less drag when they begin their carve/hook.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[franck102 0]

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Not exactly sure of the physics but I think what you are saying would be correct if the rings were directly above you and not situated in front of the body.

I would think that your position won't make any difference given the attachment point, unless you body touches something above the point where rears & fronts split, which doesn't seem to be the case from the pictures I have seen.

The movement involved in initially shifting your weight into that position will have an effect though, that's probably what makes it work?

Franck

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[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Actually, we lay forward on our chest strap and push backward on our risers, then toggles. This keeps us out front for the great majority of the effective swoop.

Chuck

[RichM 0]

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Actually, we lay forward on our chest strap and push backward on our risers, then toggles. This keeps us out front for the great majority of the effective swoop.

I can see this working with rear risers as the thrust against risers would deflect the CoM forward. My enquiring mind suggests that this would result in a "swing back" of the whole canopy/pilot system reducing the angle of attack of the canopy and so reducing lift; and again I don't understand why this makes for a better swoop (please be aware I'm a novice swooper and can't do this stuff anyway, but I'd like to understand why it works, and possibly it's perception). I can't see it making any significant difference with toggles as there is little force required to move them behind you so they would be having no significant effect on the CoM.

In both cases the rear risers would be pulled back which would result in no real change in cathedral whereas flaring with arms out would flatten the cathedral and suggest more upward lift. The only possibility that I can visualise is that canopies fly more effeciently with the back half of the canopy canted back relative to the front half. Maybe this makes for a more efficient lifting wing? I don't know here, but if this is the case, wouldn't a canopy exhibiting these characteristics fly with more lift if the C lines were trimmed slightly longer and the D lines slightly longer still?

"Haven't learned to walk yet but trying to fly the space shuttle - any astronauts out there?" :)

Rich M

[franck102 0]

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... and push backward on our risers, ...

Can you elaborate on this? Do you push on the rears, the fronts, with the hands, the body...?

Another question for the experienced swoopers: with a Sabre 150 loaded at 1.15, no wind, straight in approach with no front-risers, how much distance can you "swoop" - if at all - with a perfect technique? By "swoop" I mean he part where you fly perfectly horizontally with your feet 10 inches from the ground.

Thanks - Franck

[RichM 0]

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Actually, we lay forward on our chest strap and push backward on our risers, then toggles. This keeps us out front for the great majority of the effective swoop.

I can see this working with rear risers as the thrust against risers would deflect the CoM forward. My enquiring mind suggests that this would result in a "swing back" of the whole canopy/pilot system reducing the angle of attack of the canopy and so reducing lift

Hmm, and also reducing drag. . Have I just answered my own question?

Rich M

[skreamer 1]

No, I don't think equating this to arching in a skydive is accurate. If this was a motorbike, then of course leaning right down on the fuel tank would create a lower aerodynamic profile. But I think if you view someone swooping from the front, that leaning forward is not really going to have much (if any) of an effect on their profile.

I agree with you about lifting up the legs to create more drag, but don't think that this applies to leaning forward into the chest strap. I agree with the point about moving your weight forward under the canopy, but don't quite fall for this "cutting through the air" business.

Will

[AggieDave 6]

Cool, you have your opinion and I've got mine, although I based mine on talking to a guy that was on the pro blade tour and from a conversation with one of the Colbalt team pilots (not Chuck, since I've never met him in person).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 2,026]

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Cool, you have your opinion and I've got mine, although I based mine on talking to a guy that was on the pro blade tour and from a conversation with one of the Colbalt team pilots (not Chuck, since I've never met him in person).

A lot of "experts" thought the world was flat. Other "experts" thought that it was impossible to fly faster than sound. Never trust an opinion when a simple measurement will give you the answer you're looking for.

[Sonic 0]

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leaning forward is not really going to have much (if any) of an effect on their profile

But it would reduce their drag co-efficient slightly.

-----------------------------------
It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone

[christopherm 0]

These aren't that great of pictures but i tried my best to illustrate that surface area can be taken away by leaning forward and therefore reducing drag and also that you can make your body more aerodynamic. They are a bit exagerated but hopefully you get the point. It might not necissarily double the length of your swoop but will definately help.

-So, how hard is the ground?!

[Scoby 0]

Er, isn't that leaning backwards? Certainly, any significant reduction in frontal area is going to have a non-trivial effect on total drag, as long as the coefficient of drag isn't raised by the change. Anyway, I can't comment on how that would affect a swoop because I'm a long, long way away from having any sort of relevant experience.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Er, isn't that leaning backwards?

Only if the canopy is hooked up backwards.

Hook

[Scoby 0]

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Only if the canopy is hooked up backwards.

Doh, misread the drawing somehow...