Canopy Progression - the Pro's way

[garywainwright 0]

Thought this may be of interest to some. Unfortunately it probably won't be of interest to those who should pay attention to it
This was JC's progression (he weighs about 205lbs)

Manta 240 - 15 jumps,
Sabre 210 - 40,
Sabre 190 - 100,
Sabre 170 - 60,
Sabre 150 - 100,
Stiletto 150 - 900,
Stiletto 135 - 200,
Stiletto 120 - 300,
FX 115 - 1000,
FX 112 - 1000,
VX 94 - 1500,

Currently done 9000+ jumps

According to that he didn't go X braced until 1700+ jumps. He started in '93, not sure when X braces first came out.

And i bet he was never bored on any of them!
Have fun...

http://www.garywainwright.co.uk

Instagram gary_wainwright_uk

[gus 1]

I think the interesting thing there is his switch from a Sabre 150 to a Stiletto 150 and the number of jumps he put on the Stilletto before downsizing twice more in 'just' 500 more jumps.

Makes for interesting reading, thanks dude.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[skygod7777 0]

Quote

He started in '93, not sure when X braces first came out.

ya, x-braced canopies were out, i just don't think here in the states. if someone else doesn't find when they came out in the US, i'll find it tonight when i get back from class.

the icarus extreme (not the fx) was out in something like 1991 or 1992. then in 93 they started on the fx.

later

[garywainwright 0]

It could be that he didn't actually downsize as such. ie if i put my progression up I'd have about 100 on a stiletto 120 but I've never owned one - just borrowed them on training camps.

http://www.garywainwright.co.uk

Instagram gary_wainwright_uk

[skygod7777 0]

ok, i just looked again, and it wasn't the extreme that was out in the early 90's, it was something else (a square x-braced). the extreme is what they started working on in 93, and then was out by something like late 94 or early 95. then in 97 they started working on the fx. the extreme fx was out in like late 97 or 98.

later

[Ron 10]

The X braced canopy you are thinking of is an Excaliber.

It was a square F-111 X braced design.

A damn good canopy. Toggle presure was high, riser more so.
It had a short control range, and stalled very fast.
But swooped like hell.

PD originally tried to make it out of ZP when it became the rage, but it was a killer on opening....As was my FX88 when I got it back in 94?

PD still was playing with Xbraced canopies, but PD does not release anything till they feel it is right.

With the FX out there they picked up the pace of the testing, and produced the Velocity.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skygod7777 0]

no, i knew about the excaliber. i had forgot to metion this in my last post. i believe it was out in the late 80's.

icarus came out with a crossed braced square zp canopy.

and i can't find the parachutist from when icarus started selling canopies in the US through precision.

later

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

My brand spanking new Excalibur (1989 I think) did NOT have high riser pressure nor a short control range. It flew like a bat out of hell. It did have a pretty quick recovery arc. The only other ones in North Carolina other than mine were the ones that Bill Legard, Mike Naye, and their other two teammates on "Candy Assed Mommas Boys" had. The only problems were it's large pack volume; it was tight in a pre-Sunpath J1 Javelin; and the fact that it wore out it's useful life pretty quickly. If you loaded it heavily (for the day), it was too small for you after about 400 jumps and you had to pass it off to a smaller friend. I sold that entire rig to my vidiot, Rixter Neely, who still has it in Mississippi.

As previously stated, there was only ONE zero porosity Excallibur ever made. It was a solid neon pink 135 and Rixter Powell jumped it for a VERY long time. When we fellow Excal pilots saw that thing when The Deland Gang was here training for the 4-way event at that years world meet out of GK aircraft, we immediately called down to Florida and tried to order one. We were absolutely not interested in PD's new Sabre when we knew the Excal to be a superior parachute. We were all told that the canopy was just too hard to sew and that they had wasted a lot of fabric getting Rixter's main together. In the end, we relented and all ended up retiring our worn Excals and bought Sabres and Monarchs. Very sad.

Chuck

[garywainwright 0]

Anybody got any comments about JC's progression. Particularly interested in those with less than 500 jumps with a X braced canopy?

http://www.garywainwright.co.uk

Instagram gary_wainwright_uk

[cpoxon 0]

JC's been in the sport coming up for ten years.

Does anyone know when he went professional, in both both time and number of jumps. Also, do you know how that jump/canopy progression breaks down by time.

[R00tj00se 0]

And what's his weight so we can work out the wing loading.

[cpoxon 0]

Quote

This was JC's progression (he weighs about 205lbs)

Or do you mean his weight during his progression as he can't have always been 205 lbs? Thought the time/jumps breakdown wsa a long shot! I'd assume he's always been 205 lbs even though he may have been less.

[R00tj00se 0]

Doh! Me read slow next time - Mungo stoopid

[garywainwright 0]

He's 6'4" so I don't think its unreasonable to assume that he's been around that weight for a while

http://www.garywainwright.co.uk

Instagram gary_wainwright_uk

[craddock 0]

Quote

Anybody got any comments about JC's progression. Particularly interested in those with less than 500 jumps with a X braced canopy?

Well not anymore, but I first jumped highly loaded X braced canopies with Well under that.

First off, the most obvious has already been stated.
J.C. started jumping in 1993 before X braced canopies were available(exception noted). The Sabre was at one time a very high performance canopy. The Stiletto was PD's ultra high performance wing when introduced. According to your breakdown, J.C. started jumping the Stiletto with just over 300 jumps and at a fairly high wingloading. Jeez! Did he not know that PD recommended at least 500 jumps. Should not have some one have stopped him. When did J.C. first start juping the Extreme(date)? Nevemind. The point is that J.C. has almost always been jumping the highest performing canopies available.
Things change in sports. Canopy designs get proven. Techniques get impoved upon. ect. Was there not a time where a certain numper of jumps were recommended before even jumping a square ram air canopy?
There was a time in the 50's when a man stepped of of his waterskis, and continues to ski on his barefeet! Incredible! Many years later when I stood up my first BACKWARD deepwater barefoot start, no one noticed(except my buddy driving the boat)! How things have changed.
If J.C. had made his first jump today, he would not wait until 1700 jumps befor jumping X-braced canopies. Do you really think otherwise?

Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[grega 0]

i completely agree with you, but we still need to be very careful as we progress to smaller canopies.
Those guys before 90s were dying because, they were testing and developing high performance canopies for us today.
We can either progress fast and push todays canopies to their limits and discover something new for future skydivers, although we can very easily die doing that.
Or we can take the "secure way" and progress little slower, but not too slow, and still discover something new eventually, with much smaller chances of dying...

"George just lucky i guess!"

[jdhill 0]

I think JC started jumping the Extreme in '98 or so... He did spend 1K jumps at a 1.4 wingloading before moving to higher loadings

Josh

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[cheneyneel 0]

I totally argree with Craddock. I am a low number jumper with about 700 and already have 150 jumps on a 2.1:1 velocity.. But also there are knowledgable hard core swoopers where I live so the knowledge has been shared and tought correctly providing me with the skill enought to make the quick decisions to fly such canopies. Example: A friend of mine Craig Saucier, with 512 jumps under a Xaos 2:1 competed in the US nationals at the ranch.. Went big constantly! Placed in the top 25 of what is to be the best of the best. When and where you started canopy controls makes a huge difference in your progression and skill produced during that progression...

[sdctlc 0]

Speaking of canopy progression and performance, I remember reading an atricle that basically stated (paraphrased) the following: "as people progress downward in canopy size seeking higher performance, they dont realize that they have not even come close to the performance limits of the canopy they had been jumping" I think there is a lot of truth in that statment.

Something has to be said for jumping a canopy for a longer time and really learning how to fly it before going small really fast. The mistakes you make while learning on a sllightly larger canopy dont bite nearly as hard as they do on the smaller ones. Even in a time of rapid development of very good parachute technology.

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[Ron 10]

Well the Excall I jumped was old, and in relation to my Stiletto it had high toggle and riser inputs.

It did have a short toggle range...It droped me on my ass when it stalled once.

But like I said it was old, and had a lot of jumps on it.

One more thing....

If you look at JC's progression,
He did advance quickly for the time.
But the canopies he was jumping are still high performance today (yes they are not cutting edge, but still High Performance).

The top end of canopies has increased, and the knowledge has increased as well.

But the individual jumper still has to learn all the things that JC needed to learn back then today.

Take notice that he did a lot of stepping down 190,170,150 then a Stiletto 150 (same size,different wing) then downsized.

He took a step by step progression. That is what gave him his skill to be one of the best.

I would have to guess that if he had gone from Sabre 190 to Stiletto 97 in 500 jumps he would not be as good as he is today....I bet he learned tons on each size and type of canopy before he moved on.

I don't have a problem with people jumping high performance canopies.....I just would like to see a step progression.

Get a Xbraced canopy...but spend some time under a Stiletto,Cobalt...ect first.

Go from size to size, not from a 190 to a 97.

Each size of canopy can teach you loads.

Don't rush it, and risk never learning what you need to know. And increasing your risk of death/big pain.

You are all adults, and signed a waiver....but I hate to see people broken because they let ego, not skill pick the canopy.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jsaxton 0]

Intersting: I weigh 190 wo gear
I spent 650+ on a 190
then I moved to a stiletto 150
I plan to spend at least 1 season (400+ on this before going to a 135

[flyhi 24]

Quote

...
FX 115 - 1000,
FX 112 - 1000,
VX 94 - 1500,

Interestingly, I believe the last Parachutist or Skydiving (can't remember which) said he was flying (and placing with) a VX111. Upsizing in the pro ranks? Whodathunkit?

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]Upsizing in the pro ranks?[/QUOTE]

I think the idea is to upsize the wing and wear alittle weight, that way your WL stays the same but the wing you're flying is bigger thus being able to create more life. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

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in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[grega 0]

I don't know either, but i think it has to do more with control range (bigger canopy, bigger control range), than lift.

"George just lucky i guess!"

[Canuck 0]

My thoughts on JCs downsizing.

1. Jumping a Stiletto with 300 jumps is an agressive move. Even by todays standards. I have seen many threads on these forums where somebody in that jump number category has asked if it's a good idea to go elliptical, and the overwhelming response is usually NO!

2. What I do like about his progression is that he did 900 jumps under that Stiletto, loaded at about 1.4, and you can bet your ass that's the canopy he learned to swoop on. What scares me is people, no matter how many jumps they have, that start trying to learn agressive approaches at higher loadings (ie the guy who flies straight ins on a canopy loaded at 1.4 and then decides he wants to be a swooper so goes to 1.8 and starts hooking).

Canuck