Hello anti downsizing canopy nazis ;-)))

[Beppo 0]

Hello ladies and gentlemen,


for the first I had to say that my english sometimes looks catastrophically.
But this will everybody see anyway ;o). *bg*.

OK

I often read articles about anti downsizing.
See in this forum. Very very very often in many threads rookie jumpers
are asking about downsizing.
And on every dropzone you can find skygods where tell you about the risks
of highly loaded cannopies.
Every AFF jumpmaster tell his students, that they hadn't to fly
canopies above 1.0 as first cannopies.

When you visit the homepages from the manfuacturers, you can also
read articles about the danger of downsizing (for example: PD's articles
as pdf).
But they ALL don't show in their advertisement clips and pics
low loaded cannopies.
No, only the mega hyper ultra swoop machines wich are be loaded
above 2.x or so are on the pictures.
Turf surfs, long swoops - that is what the main pages shows.
Did you seen really a manfufacturer which has made advertisement with
a 1:1 canopie and a conservative landing? No
(in my opinion john le blanc and the other manufacturers are lied i***ts...).
So all manufacturers and often many experienced jumpers say (rookie) jumpers
that only elipticals are the right stuff.
On the one hand they all warning but on the other hand they show you that when
you want to be really cool you can't fly a F111 monster!.

What are the problems?

Parachutes are very expensivly products.
Skydive are expensive too.


Sure - it is the right way to downsizing slowly. First the 190 square @ 1:1 for 200 jumps or so,
than the 170 for 200, than the 170 (slightly?) eliptical (and so on and so on).
But which jumper has the money to buy a new rig every 100-200 jumps?
The most jumpers hadn't money to make more than 100-150 jumps / year.
When a young jumper get his license he has the problem what to buy.
He want to jump often as possible - but he don't want to jump his "uncool" PD 210 for 2-3 years or so.
Now some rookie jumpers think - why not a Stiletto @ 1.5 from the start?
This is the problem.
The trend in skydiving generally where that are only spectacular landings, only small cannopies, only small rigs
are cool. You wan't to be a really cool guy? So you don't can't get the conservative way...
It is not cool to land a PD 210 conservative - so you must hook it. But a hook under a a Stiletto is much cooler..........

Do U know what I mean?

GrEeTz, Tom

[quade 4]

Advertising will generally focus on flash over substance.

The purpose of an ad is to get the consumer's attention.

In the US, enough people have hurt themselves driving cars the way stunt people do in commercials that we have to run disclaimers at the bottom of the ads stating that professional drivers are being used on a closed course and the maneuvers shouldn't be performed by consumers.

I'd like to think the average skydiver is intelligent enough to know the difference between the reality of their skill level and an ad. Unfortunately, that's not always the case.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[PhreeZone 20]

Quote

Did you seen really a manfufacturer which has made advertisement with
a 1:1 canopie and a conservative landing? No
(in my opinion john le blanc and the other manufacturers are lied i***ts...).

You have'nt seen the new PD Sabre2 ads that have a big canopy in them huh? Lighting ads show stacks being landed. Spectre ads usually show a nice large canopy and a gentle landing.

Quote

Sure - it is the right way to downsizing slowly. First the 190 square @ 1:1 for 200 jumps or so,
than the 170 for 200, than the 170 (slightly?) eliptical (and so on and so on).
But which jumper has the money to buy a new rig every 100-200 jumps?
The most jumpers hadn't money to make more than 100-150 jumps / year.

As it was put to me a few hundred jumps ago, if you can't afford trips to the ER don't play the game. A hook in will probally cost more then 100 more jumps, and thats a quick trip with no pins, screws, braces, etc. Start adding in rehab and pins and its common to see hospital bills thats $5000 or higher. Currency is more important then most things in swooping and if you can't remain current don't play the game. I argued that at 250 jumps a year I could be current enough, but now that I've got a more agressive canopy I'm seeing that 250 is the min in a year to swoop, 500 would be better. If you can't afford it, just play it safer. I want an exotic car too but I can't afford it so I don't worry about it, and I don't drive my little car like its a Porsche.

If you can't afford a new canopy all the time learn to refine your technique on the larger canopy. My DZ has a lot of style and accuracy jumpers at it, so its common seeing 240 or larger sized canopies all around. On the entire DZ there are less then 10 canopies that are 120 or smaller that are jumped all the time. Average wingloading is probally 1.3-1.4.

What would be nice to see published in the ads is the jump numbers. Seeing jumpers that have 2000 jumps, 3500 jumps or in the case of PD and the Velocity ads with Rickster, 15000 jumps might make some people realize that its experience way more then anything else that determins if a canopy swoops or not.

Once most jumpers reach an experience level, and maturity level in jumping they quickly relize their limits and how hard they can push those limits. Usually maturity comes before they kill themselves, but seeing a friend seriously injure or kill themself quickly wakes a lot of people up. You don't often see a jumper with 500 jumps running out and swapping his 150 Sabre for a 79 Velocity.

Seeing as your profile is empty I'm guessing your trying to justify getting a canopy that the "skygods that tell you about the risks of highly loaded canopies" said was a bad choice. People that care about you not hurting yourself are not Skygods. If you think they are skygods, your preception of jumping personilities is off.

PhreeZone
Canopy Nazi #2
$950 in hospital bills under a canopy at 1.2

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[iowa 0]

I don't think anyone here is being nazi about downsizing at all. Maybe just trying to help others avoid the pain and/or ambulance ride.

Downsizing too much and too quickly hurts and even kills our friends.

Flying a highly loaded wing safely takes experience that needs to be gained over time and with downsizing in a reasonable progression.

I think most everyone finds themselves in that corner where we shouldn't be sometime. It's experience that keeps it from going from bad to worse. It's experience that keeps us from being in the corner more often.

Keith

''Always do sober what you said you would do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.'' - Ernest Hemingway

[cobaltdan 0]

i understand your point and
as a manufacturer i can agree with you that it is the high performance canopies that set an image for a company. but i can also tell you that atair posts real world loading charts for their canopies and our promotional videos at boogies are a mix of low and high wing loadings. when we attend boogies our staff predominately coaches low to medium experience jumpers at light wing loadings. it is not uncommon to see our 'pro' pilots at boogies demonstrating canopy skills on 150's and 170's. and we have run several advertisments showing our canopies in the 1.2# wing load range.

its fun to design pocket rockets but 90% of the industry flys at low to medium wing loadings.

sincerely,

dan<><>
www.extremefly.com

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[relyon 0]

***Lighting ads show stacks being landed.[\quote]

Where? The PD Lightning pics I've seen are ancient.

Bob

[billvon 2,991]

>Sure - it is the right way to downsizing slowly. First the 190 square @
> 1:1 for 200 jumps or so,
>than the 170 for 200, than the 170 (slightly?) eliptical (and so on
> and so on).
>But which jumper has the money to buy a new rig every 100-200
> jumps?

Not many, which is why it's a good idea to buy a used rig first. For $1500 you can get a good rig, main and reserve that will keep you safe as you learn. For example, my progression:

Pursuit 215/PD160R/Swift container - $850

PD190 used - $350

Sabre 150 new - $900 (deal)

Safire 119 - $1200

Now, you probably can't get this stuff for this cheap any more, but the general idea holds. You don't have to buy new all the time, especially if you're not going to use it for very long.

[PhreeZone 20]

>Now, you probably can't get this stuff for this cheap any more, but the general idea holds. You don't have to buy new all the time, especially if you're not going to use it for very long.

Good point, here is my progression:

Javelin,PD-r, Cypres, Spectre $3300. Sold the Spectre for $900 got a Cobalt for $850 just bought a Jedei for $600. I knew the Cobalt and Jedei did'nt have to look new or anything since I'll onlt have them for a season or season and a half.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[RichM 0]

Quote

>Now, you probably can't get this stuff for this cheap any more, but the general idea holds. You don't have to buy new all the time, especially if you're not going to use it for very long.

Good point

Ditto. I've been in the sport 6 years, and have only bought one container new, everything else is second hand, and it holds a reasonable resale value too.

Rich M

[Zlew 0]

You have to sell what's sexy.... that's advertising man. Ford sells lots of Tempo's but you don't tend to see as many banners for them as you do for rag top mustangs with half naked girls in them..and thank god for that.
Nobdoy can ever lay down rules for what wingloding someone should jump, or how many jumps they need on a given wing before they downsize. It's just not that easy. We all know pepole that do fine on agressive canopies early on....as well as people who have no business jumping what they jump with thousands of jumps.
Those of us who went to Eloy got a great chance to see just how many CRAPPY pilots there are in this world.
If you don't want to listen to those around you, thats fine with me. Buy whatever wing you want. "If you don't learn, the sport will teach you".
The sport favors rods, pins, surgery, and body bags as opposed to slaps on the wrist when it teaches you. I just hope that if the sport teaches you, that the body bag or pins used to teach the lesson belong to you, and not one of your buddies who you killed.

Z

[Samurai136 0]

Ford still sells Tempos?!??


Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[listo 0]

Well that is about the worst way I have ever heard of anyone talking about downsizing. It is the same thing I heard at jump #120 when I went to a Viper 120 @1.7. I was smart enough to handle it and was told that I wouldn't die. I started hooking it and 36 jumps later I was in the hospital for a week with a shattered femur, broken hip and broken back.

If you are going to be a smart behind when it comes to downsizing, please for the sake of the unknowing, keep your mouth closed. A responsible high performance canopy pilot has two major responsibitlies to deal with. First he/she has to keep themselves alive. Second, he/she has to realize that people are more than likely learning from what they are doing. If they have a wreckless attitude, then the people who are learning are going to have the same thing and more than likely end up hurt or dead. Valuable information is priceless, but a "smart behind" comment might not be understood by a low experienced person the same way it is understood by an experienced jumper. Keep that in mind when you(everyone) make comments about such a serious matter!

It is true that some people have the ability to learn faster than others, but who are we to judge whether or not they can "see" the picture when their life is in danger and we can't talk to them .....ie, in the corner. There are standards as far as experience levels and wingloadings for a reason. Typically, they are right on the money! If you see someone that is above standard, keep the thought to yourself and encourage them to learn more. You might be keeping them alive. If you see someone who is behind the standard, keep the thought to yourself and encourage them to learn more as well. You can't teach high performance canopy flight to someone. You can only give pointers and ideas, what that person does with it is up to them.

Personally, I would feel pretty bad seeing Joe "Wonder" Wildman getting really good, me encourage him to do what ever he feels is right for him and then he goes out and pounds in. I would much rather keep that person's mind in the experience level that he is in and let him progress on his own. When he is good enough to downsize, it is when he can't get anything more out of his current canopy. Meaning he has done hundreds of jumps in all kinds of conditions and in all kinds of scenarios. It is impossible to learn a canopy in 100 jumps. IMPOSSIBLE! More importantly, I guess I should say, it is impossible to learn how to fly a canopy to its full range in less than 100 jumps. However you want to take that Be safe and be aware of what you are saying when it comes to high perforamance canopies. You may never know who is listening or how they are going to take it.

I have recovered from my accident quite well, luckily and have progressed into a very safe pilot. I came back to a Stiletto loaded at 1.4. When I was bored because I could do nothing more with it. I downsized to a 1.65, the same thing there. I couldn't get anymore out of it and now I am jumping at 1.9-2.0. I have not had any close calls since I got hurt, but I am also a lot safer and more conservative.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

heard at jump #120 when I went to a Viper 120 @1.7. I was smart enough to handle it and was told that I wouldn't die. I started hooking it and 36 jumps later I was in the hospital for a week with a shattered femur, broken hip and broken back.

Well, that was stupidity on your part. What Zlew was saying is pretty much true, with in reason what people tell you may or may not apply. It all depends on who is telling you this and in what context. I'm more then willing to bet that in your previous situation more then one person told you that what you were wanting to do was NOT a good idea, but you listened to the one person who told you what you wanted to hear.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Cajun 0]

Another thing that instructors have a hard time remembering is that just because I can land a 1.5:1 strait in with no problems, doesn't mean someone with 50 jumps can do the same thing. It's easy now, It would have killed me at 50 jumps.

[listo 0]

ok, but my point is this. If someone is interested enough to even talk about high performance canopies and their flight characteristics, then care needs to be taken not to wrongfully influence them.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[Treejumps 0]

Snip- It is the same thing I heard at jump #120 when I went to a Viper 120 @1.7. I was smart enough to handle it and was told that I wouldn't die. I started hooking it and 36 jumps later I was in the hospital for a week with a shattered femur, broken hip and broken back.

Clearly you were not ready for the 120. The comments about the sport teaching you are harsh and rightfully so. Hyper down sizing is a new phenomenon. Five years ago it just wasn't happening the way it is today. We are just getting started with people flyng themselves into the ground with 1.8 wingloadings at 200 jumps. The high profile of swooping contests are making newbies seek out a discipline that requires more experience than can be gained in 100 jumps, or 500 jumps for that matter. I guess everyone will learn; some will learn to swoop well quickly and some will learn that they did not have the requisite skills (and won't be able to walk again.

Have fun, but be careful.

Tree

[DutchSkyCam 0]

Damn it is so difficult...

Telling people it is dangerous, while swooping hard, looking for new swooping challenges and going to the limits myself...

Do as I say, don't do as I do...

As a jumpmaster I overhear students saying they want to land the way I do. I try to grab the opportunity to teach them basic canopy control.

For the students: "Before you attempt high speed landings, you should know how to come out of a turn fast (I mean stopping the turn) and how low-turns are to be made safely (flat turns)... In ANY condition..."

To all the "anti downsizing canopy nazis":
#1, They wil try to make high performance landings anyway, we might as wel give 'em the informtion they need to do it the right way.
#2, If you are against -us- swooping. I wil NEVER force -nor advice- anyone to buy a small canopy. If someone (say < 200 jumps) asks for my oppinion, I will advise a wingload of 1.1 to 1.3. (No matter how good you are, you cannot be ready for what's comming when loading it anything higher)...

If you want to jump a lightly loaded parachute I RESPECT that... (note the capital's)

[Zlew 0]

This all started when the first post said that he KNEW people don't like when low timers down size and undertands the dangers, but thinks its' silly that all the Ads are for the fast stuff...
That is where my post came from.
If your friends told you at 120 jumps that a 1.7 :1 eliptical was ok for you.... either A: you bought the gear from a "friend" who needed to sell it, or B. your friends don't like you, or C your friends are idiots.. I have to agree with Dave that there HAD to be people who told you that was stupid or at least a bad idea. And in fact, your post supports mine...... "If you don't learn the sport will teach you". You know better now, and the sport damn near killed you when you learned.
There is somethign to be said in that.
My point is that if anybody thinks they know better and want to get high speed gear at any skill or jump level.....Go for it. You will either love your new gear or end up in the hospital.

Z

[Zlew 0]

The bottom line is this. You will learn in this sport. If you don't want to learn from the people who give you advice, or those who are around you that is fine. Don't learn from them and you run a real high risk of letting the sport teach you. If you have your mind made up that you want to buy sexy gear.... me or anyone else posting here as a "downsizing Nazi" is not going to make you change your mind. So go ahead and get what you want because I can't keep anyone from buying any gear. and i'm glad i can't. This isn't tap dancing, there are major prices to pay if you think you konw better...but really don't.

Z

[listo 0]

Sure, I learned a great deal of respect for high performance canopy flight and more importantly, just as you said, the sport taught me. I didn't teach myself and noone else taught me. Yeah there were people who expressed concern.

I believe that a good DZO should come up in a situation like that and say....."look man, what you are doing is potentially suicide". "If you want to jump this "rocket ship" at your low experience, then fine, but the first time you almost kill yourself or someone else, then you are going to have to find another DZ." If someone had put it to me that way, then I might have been a little more careful. Sometimes a strong word or altamatum as a last resort is what is needed. In my case, it definately was and I really regret that the bystanders and first jump students had to see me get stupid. It wasn't like I was making my first jump on that canopy. It was after quite a few close calls. (my own health)

I will be the first to admit that what I did was stupid. I can see that now. At the time I was someone that was accellerating very fast in the sport and I was extremely good for my jump numbers. All I am suggesting is this. As a high performance canopy pilot I take special precaution to watch each high performance landing at my home DZ. I think that when someone is ready, then they should downsize by all means if they want to.

The great thing about where I jump is this. We all get along and talk about things on a weekly basis. We have a big dropzone and a lot of different types of skydivers, but we all get along and respect each other. The main reason is that when you get there, you will notice EVERYONE talking about things. The skygods are not really that relevant there. If you have an attitude, you will be shunned. We keep each other safe no matter what the experience level.

I have had people that have less than 100 jumps come to me after a swoop and say "little low there Sam" and to which I reply according to the way I feel. Usually in one of two ways. I either know that I was low or there was some other reason, or just thank them for bringing it up to me. If it was just bad judgement then fine. I ACCEPT it from EVERYONE. That is how we have people learning. They talk WITH us, NOT TO us or us TO them. At the same time, I along with other HP Canopy pilots will congratulate each other and critique each other. It makes us better, safer and closer to each other.

Personally, one of the things that I dont like the most about this sport is the people with the inflated attitudes. If you are good, share the wealth and how you kept your health. Don't just preach to someone how to do something.... share with them how you did it and stayed alive doing it. Use some of the worlds greatest canopy pilots for referrences and take the time to actually learn some of their jump numbers and when they downsized and what they downsized to. Almen, Slaton, Canni (World Champion), Colclasure, Farrington, Gilbert ....all of these guys are great canopy pilots. Everytime I get a chance, I talk to these guys or people like them. I dont know everything and probably never will, but I DO KNOW that I can learn, refine and share knowledge.

Don't be afraid to tell someone that they ARE NOT READY for a certain wing loading. If you are going to engage in this conversation, be prepared. Be prepared to offer them advice for refining what they currently do and be prepared to stay with them while they learn. If you are not qualified to help them or not ready to commit to their learning, then point them in the direction of someone who is capable.

Please, dont just say..." the sport will teach you if you are going to be stupid" There aren't very many people in the world who have the desire to fly the way we do. Lets do our own part to keep our "species" alive.

High performance canopy flight is definately only for mature people. Even though most of us are goofs on the ground. In the air, you have to be responsible for you own actions. Some people learn this from watching, some learn it from conversation, some learn it from experiences. I say take the time to really explain what we do and why we really do it. I would suggest to anyone flying a high performance canopy that is doing it to look cool, upsize. It may look cool, but we are explorers and we need to respect what we do in a mature manner. People who TRY to look cool, seldomly are. The ones that ARE cool, DON'T TRY. BE smart not only for yourself, but for others around you as well.
JUST FOR THE RECORD....I put some words in caps to hi-lite them only.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[Zlew 0]

just to re-cap.........
the origional post makes it clear that the guy knows what people think about low timers downsizing quickly.

If you don't listen to the people around you, or if you are one of my friends/co jumpers who asks me personally...and don't want to listen then you have made your choice. I'm not going to call you mom. As an employee and long time jumper at my dz i feel confidant that if i told my St&a or DZO that someone is going to be the first to kill themselfs at our dz, that they would take action from their side.
i don't have any problems being blunt about what this sport can do to any of us. If you want to sit down and talk about canopies with me, that is fine. But when you come to a webpage and argue that in some way it must be ok to jump small gear because thats what they do in the ads..... I"m not going to spend my time preaching to you what you already know.
I hope the guy who started this post read your post about you hammering in and learned something.

Z

[skyblu 0]

Do you get paid per word?

[listo 0]

no, I just have a strong view on high performance canopy flight and who is doing it and why.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[Sentryforc 0]

Ive got a question. I admittedly downsized too quickly, so what should I do about it?

First, I have about 120 jumps and I jump a Stiletto 150. That may sound bad but I started jumping it at around jump 65. I weigh 180. I started out on a Sabre 190 and no, I wasnt hooking it or anything, but I got bored on it. I had gotten the hang of front riser dive approaches and I wanted a canopy that flew faster and turned faster.

First off, for all of you who are just waiting to flame me. I realize that I dont know anything about canopy flight at 120 jumps. So to save about 50 of you emailing me, I realize that none of my beliefs on canopy stuff has any value. But the purpose of this is not to say anything but to ask some questions.

I went to a Stiletto 150 for two reasons. The first was I wanted to jump a J1 container because its the smallest I thought I could handle and come out unscathed and small containers look cool. In addition to looking cool, a small container makes freefall a little better because you dont have a really cumbersome rig which is what I thought of the 190. The second is that I did not want to get bored in another 20 jumps with a Sabre 170 and end up spending money to get a new rig. So, in the interest of getting a canopy that I could jump for a while and stay entertained, I got a Stiletto 150.

I didnt go strait to the 150. I jumped a Sabre 170 twice and a triathalon 170 about 15 times. At this point, I am confident in my ability to control the Stiletto in a normal approach; I realize that I dont really know it until Ive done some more landings with it but Ive used it crosswind, downwind, heavy winds and I feel I have the ability fly it without any danger to myself or others. I aint gonna lie, when I first jumped the Stiletto it scared the shit out of me and I was in a little bit over my head but due to some helpful advice and a little bit of luck, I made . . . so far.

So, I still get the occasional "youre gonna die" talk from old timers when I tell them I am jumping a Stiletto 150. My big question is, What the hell do you expect me to do? Should I sell my rig and go back to jumping an enormous J4 and a Sabre 190? No amount of "talking to's" could get me to do that.

I go out to the DZ and see the same people who have 100's of fun jumps come in and eat shit on their spectre 170 that want to tell me Im gonna die on my Stiletto.

So, here is what I have decided, and I would apreciate constructive comments on it. After evaluating my recent canopy flight, Ive decided that I need to go back to the basics. Ive been regularly using a moderate 90 degree front riser approach into landing and played with a few 180 snap turns here and there too when I thought my altitude was right(and so far I have been right). So, sitting back and thinking rationally, I know Im gonna get hurt bad if I dont back off a little bit. At the same time I want to begin learning aggressive canopy flight.

So, the first thing I am going to do is master the double front riser approach which I havent nearly done yet. Once I can nearly plane my canopy out with it, then go to 45 deg and then 90 deg turns.

So, what does everyone have to say about this?

[Samurai136 0]

Hello Troll.
If you are really going back to basics, do at least 50 CRW jumps and learn the canopy's performance range up high. Then learn landing accurately before you return to front riser landings. That should keep you busy for another hundred or so jumps...

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken