Hello anti downsizing canopy nazis ;-)))

[greggfah 0]

That's awesome that you have made that decision. A bit of caution in your skydiving career can't hurt.

It's hard to pass judgement on anyone in this forum because we have not seen each other fly, swoop, etc.

I would say that your thinking is correct with starting with straight in front riser, then 45, 90, etc. If you jump at the ranch, I would talk to one of the swoopers there to watch you and ask for their advice. All of us can give you the best advice in the world, but we're not there watching you...

[billvon 2,994]

>Ive got a question. I admittedly downsized too quickly, so what
> should I do about it?

Get to a canopy control course ASAP. Even if it's expensive and far away. It will still be cheaper than the hospital bills.

[sarge 0]

To quote zlew: in his reply to Listo

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If your friends told you at 120 jumps that a 1.7 :1 eliptical was ok for you.... either A: you bought the gear from a "friend" who needed to sell it, or B. your friends don't like you, or C your friends are idiots..

sell your shit to someone else (preferably one of those guys) , cause :

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I know Im gonna get hurt bad if I dont back off a little bit.

Doesn't sound like you have the mental game for that wing brother , or maybe you do and you are just confused about what game that game is??

just me talkin.... but, think of all the really cool stuff you could buy with the $$$$ ? Besides, after they cut it up when you crash it will be worth a lot less.

Well there I was... hell knows how I got there! but she says, " you like scented panties?" I guess I shoulda said, "yeah?" but the next thing I know I'm tumbling down the expressway a 55mph...

--
I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!!

[listo 0]

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So, I still get the occasional "youre gonna die" talk from old timers when I tell them I am jumping a Stiletto 150. My big question is, What the hell do you expect me to do? Should I sell my rig and go back to jumping an enormous J4 and a Sabre 190? No amount of "talking to's" could get me to do that

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So, what does everyone have to say about this?

Well, I am not going to harp on what you are doing, but I will just say this. You have the exact same attitude I had and it sounds like you are doing the same stuff I was doing. Just FYI, I had been practicing and practicing, up high and down low. One day I thought that I had it figured out. I was 100% sure that I could handle the shit out of the canopy I was jumping. Long story short.....I did a rotating front riser, the picture was that I was a little high so I burried the risers some more to get a really good swoop.
Little did I know, in that .5 seconds of extra front riser on my viper, I had put myself way too low. I hit the ground at about 35mph vertically and about 40-50mph horizontally. I bounced 10 feet into the air, did a flip through my risers. I thought that I was on the ground so I tried to lay back.I knew I had hit hard. I opened my eyes to see that I was still flying and had no clue what was up and what was down. About that time I hit right on my ass and broke my back really bad. I was laying down then, so I sat up. I looked down to see that I had 5 knees on my left leg and looked up to see everyone running to me and screaming. Now, my total injuries incuded a left femur that was in 5 pieces, a dislocated and broken left hip and my back was broken in three places.

If this sounds fun to you, then by all means keep doing just what you are doing with the same attitude you have brother.

Here is my advice to you, take it for what you will. I am now a pretty shit hot swooper. I had to drop back to a larger canopy when I came back from my injuries. I had to learn everything all over again. The main thing I learned was that I really didn't know exactly what I thought I did. If I did know what I thought that I knew, I wouldn't have had to relearn anything. When you are in the really low experience range, you tend to give yourself false sense of security. It has happened to everyone out there who is worth the air they are speaking with. Nobody wants you to get hurt and as experienced jumpers we want to share our experiences with you to keep you healthy, much less alive. Take your time man, you will be there soon enough and you wont have life long injuries to really slow things down for you. If i had another 2 feet of altitude, I would have skated right through it and never hit the ground. Truth is, I might be dead now though.

There are old pilots and bold pilots......
you can learn from the old pilots, but the bold pilots have legacies that look cool. You decide.

Again, I am not harping here. Just sharing an experience.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[skybytch 273]

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But which jumper has the money to buy a new rig every 100-200 jumps?

You don't have to buy a new rig every couple hundred jumps. Most modern containers will safely hold at least one if not two sizes smaller than they were built for. Downsizing doesn't need to involve more than getting a smaller canopy. If you've taken halfway decent care of your current canopy buying a smaller used one shouldn't cost too much out of pocket.

[skybytch 273]

Canopy Nazi #1 here...

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To all the "anti downsizing canopy nazis":
#1, They wil try to make high performance landings anyway, we might as wel give 'em the informtion they need to do it the right way.

I tell anyone wanting to get into swooping to get themselves to a canopy control school pronto. Swooping isn't going to go away, and many of those coming into the sport are going to want to get into it. imho, the key to reducing the number of lower experienced jumpers being injured or killed under canopies that are too much for their experience, ability and training is education.

That education needs to be "state of the art" and sought out as soon as someone decides that swooping is what they want to do. The time to start learning high performance landings is under a lightly loaded canopy; lighter loadings don't bite quite as hard when you screw up.

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#2, If you are against -us- swooping. I wil NEVER force -nor advice- anyone to buy a small canopy. If someone (say < 200 jumps) asks for my oppinion, I will advise a wingload of 1.1 to 1.3. (No matter how good you are, you cannot be ready for what's comming when loading it anything higher)...

Not sure what you're trying to say here. Although I don't do swoop landings, I do enjoy watching them. I wish I could take that kind of risk with my body cuz it looks really fun. But I can't, so I jump a light wingloading. That doesn't mean that just because I can't swoop I think that no one should swoop.

[skybytch 273]

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small containers look cool.

Yeah, that's definitely the most important factor when deciding what gear to get - what looks cool.

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The second is that I did not want to get bored in another 20 jumps with a Sabre 170 and end up spending money to get a new rig.

If you're bored with a canopy after 20 jumps you haven't even begun to explore the true limits of it.

And once more, you don't have to buy a new rig to downsize one or two sizes. All you have to buy is a smaller main canopy.

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What the hell do you expect me to do? Should I sell my rig and go back to jumping an enormous J4 and a Sabre 190?

Nope. Put that Stiletto away for awhile and buy a used Sabre, Sabre2, Safire, Safire2, Hornet or equivalent 170. It'll take a bit of stuffing but you can make it fit in your J1. Take that to Deland or Perris or some other place where they offer state of the art canopy control training. After taking a canopy control course that focuses on high performance landings, do another 100-200 jumps on the 170 and really learn to fly the shit out it. Then bring your Stiletto back out.

And hope you don't have to use that 143 reserve on a bad spot at sunset over a residential area or trees in the meantime.

[Treejumps 0]

Lisa is quite right,

My first rig was a new Reflex built for a PD230. I still jump it regularly for as a secnd rig for shooting video with a Crossfire 149 in it. I have even jumped my VX120 in it, and it is fine if you know how to change closing loop lengths. It also makes a nice cushy pillow if you need to crash out.

Tree

[Sentryforc 0]

Listo,

You have good points and I certainly wouldnt pass up a chance to learn from your experiences. I have a few thoughts though.

1. Stiletto. From the way people talked to me about the Stiletto, I thought that I would be fighting all the way to keep it from spontaneously hooking. They made is sound like I would have no control. I was very suprised to find that it was actually easier to control that my old Sabre. Yes, it was extremely responsive but I felt like I had much more control from the very first jump.

2. Front Risers. When using the toggles on my Stiletto, I noticed a rapid altitude loss compared to my Sabre. It was actually a little scary when I made a course adjustment with my toggles on final-a move that would have been no problem on my Sabre. IMHO, front risers are a more predictable method for making the final turn because I can adjust my decent rate during the turn and have a more reliable perception of where I will be when I finish the turn. Im not speaking of hook turns but shallow front risers turns.

I realize that this is the opinion of someone with 130 jumps but these are just my observations based on about 70 jumps with a stiletto now.

It used to be that students were put on round canopies and need to make a certain number of jumps before going to a square. Now students are put on squares and some DZ's I have heard of put students on Sabres.

I guess the real test of whether I was ready to downsize will come when I have to sink into someones backyard. Maybe someday students will get put on elipticals.

[jumperconway 0]

I've stuffed everything in my last j-i from a 170 Saber,150 Saber, 135 Specter,129 Omega, 99 Crossfire, 85 Cobalt.
You should be able to find a used 170 Saber or Stilleto pretty reasonable, save a leg.

[listo 0]

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I guess the real test of whether I was ready to downsize will come when I have to sink into someones backyard. Maybe someday students will get put on elipticals.

Brother, I am scared for you. It seems that you didn't come in here to get questions answered. You aren't listening to anyone. You are defending what you are doing. Honestly, you are being hard headed.
The test of whether you can fly your canopy is not what you do with it in a tight landing area. The test is when you have completely learned and mastered the one size larger. It is impossible to MASTER a canopy in less than 200 jumps. I dont care what anyone says. Even the pro tour guys will tell you this. You are flirting with danger man. You will have plenty of time to get good. What is your rush to be good now. Do you really think that you are the prodigy that is going to win the Pro Swooping World championship on your 500th jump. I have news, you wont and you will die trying.

Slow down, put your 150 in the closet and go get a 170. I am interested to know at what altitude your DZ is? that has a major affect on what you jump too.

If you really want to learn from my experiences, then upsize or do just straigth approaches. Honestly, you have lived through 70 jumps on the thing, you might have learned enough to keep yourself alive. When you can stop on a 1 meter target straight in, then try reaching for your risers. That is what I did. I use a frizbee for a target now and I am jumping a 120 @1.9.

Please, for your own sake and the reputation of our sport. Slow down a little bit. You will be good enough in plenty of time. And then you can pass on the good judgement to those following you. I am now doing just what people were doing to me when I was where you are brother. Take it slow, and I would suggest that you print out the post i put in here about my accident and read it before every jump. You might find yourself alive and healthy a lot longer if you do.

I really am fearful for your health with the attitude you have towards skydiving right now. You seem to be doing it for all of the WRONG reasons. Skydivers are cool, we dont have to try to look cool.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[billvon 2,994]

>Yes, it was extremely responsive but I felt like I had much more
>control from the very first jump.

You do. You can use that extra control to save your life if you need to - if you know what you're doing. If you don't, that extra 'control' may just kill you. It's all in your training.

>It was actually a little scary when I made a course adjustment with
> my toggles on final-

Egads! Do not jump a canopy that scares you if you make a toggle adjustment/turn on final! Using front risers instead is like steering your car by opening the doors because the steering wheel is too twitchy.

>I guess the real test of whether I was ready to downsize will come
> when I have to sink into someones backyard.

As a bit of advice, learn how to do that on a perfect day with good winds in a wide open landing area, not just before the storm hits on a bad spot in high winds. You'll have a much better chance of surviving the experience.

> Maybe someday students will get put on elipticals.

They are, and if they are taught how to fly them, they do fine.