Firebolt

[Treejumps 0]

I was wondering if anyone actually bought one of Jumpshack's "new" canopies. The Firebolt was introduced at PSN 2002 to the giggles of many. It seems to be designed based on the wildly successful Turbo Z with f-11 bottom skin. Anyone even seen one of these instant relics? I just had to ask.

Tree

[skygod7777 0]

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I was wondering if anyone actually bought one of Jumpshack's "new" canopies. The Firebolt was introduced at PSN 2002 to the giggles of many. It seems to be designed based on the wildly successful Turbo Z with f-11 bottom skin. Anyone even seen one of these instant relics? I just had to ask.

well, i haven't jumped one, or seen one fly, but nancy at jumpshack really wanted me to jump the 74 firebolt they have. it's not a stock size yet, but she really wanted my to try it to compare to a vx. i told her i would, but i haven't gotten around to it yet.

the f-111 bottom skin kinda makes me think the swoops would be much shorter.

later

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

They made a canopy that size using f-111? that's scary. I'm sure they have a reason though.

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[skygod7777 0]

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They made a canopy that size using f-111? that's scary. I'm sure they have a reason though.

openings. the F-111 bottom skin give more consistant opeings. and since your lift is gererated from the top skin, the f-111 isn't a big deal.

and the test jumper says it also dives quite well, but i don't know that for a fact.

later

[Jimbo 0]

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the f-111 bottom skin kinda makes me think the swoops would be much shorter.

Why?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

wouldn't the canopy's life be shorter though due to this?

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Say no to subliminal messages

[sdctlc 0]

A blended fabric canopy is not instatnly a bad thing. Maybe the Turbo had its problems but to compare a new canopy to it and call it an instant relic may be a bit harsh. PD sells the Silhouette which is a 9-cell "hybrid" canopy with ZP top and F-11 bottom. Kinda seems like the Sabre2 with a f-111 bottom. It has gotten good feedback from people that I know that jump it. The blend of fabrics is to help make more consistant openings and allow for easy packing. Additionally the Blend is billed to extend the life of the canopy. It is a nice conservative canopy that is more zippy than a full F-111.

I dont know much about the Firebolt but I did think it was full ZP though? Learn something every day I guess! I will reserve the right to put it in the dumpster after I hear more about or actually jump one a few times

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[skygod7777 0]

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the f-111 bottom skin kinda makes me think the swoops would be much shorter.

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Why?

well, at first it would be just like a zp canopy. the "F-111" of today, when brand new is like zp for like 15 or 20 jumps. but after that, the sink rate would go up, and then that would be shorter swoops.

in my mind at least.

maybe someone can correct me on this.

later

[skygod7777 0]

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wouldn't the canopy's life be shorter though due to this?

yes, a little, i reall don't know how much exactly. since it's on the bottom, it would last longer than being on the top skin. the top skin gets the most damage (sunlight, packing, whatever)

later

[Jimbo 0]

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well, at first it would be just like a zp canopy. the "F-111" of today, when brand new is like zp for like 15 or 20 jumps. but after that, the sink rate would go up, and then that would be shorter swoops.

Would it? My understanding is that lift is generated from the top of the wing, not the bottom. Granted an F111 top skin would make a significant difference, but I'm thinking that on the bottom skin it won't matter at all.

I'd love for someone with more understanding of modern canopies and aerodynamics to chime in here.

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Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[flyinryan 0]

Just an observation I have made....(actually more of an anology)...and one refrence to Bernolli

I jump a Fox Vtec canopy and have yet to put the valves/ vent covers on it (will eventually). Now, this is just analogy, but I think you could model the increasing porosity of old "F-111" as very small vents on the bottom of the canopy. I have noticed on my vented canopy that the sink rate seems high relative to a non-vented canopy...in this aplication I think that is a good thing but in swooping that would be a bad thing (I actually have video of the canopy doing a 180 pivot in place with out loosing any "rigidity" using only rear risers). To be fair I have not flown two of the same canopy that are only different in that one has vents and the other does not back to back to test this...just a fealing.

BASE 853

[Rdutch 0]

Ive seen the canopies jumped a lot. Nancy also has offered and soon Im going to walk over there and pick one up for a few jump's. Here is what Ive heard and seen about them. Edson Pancheco jumped one of the sub 100 canopies and he liked it a lot, he said it had a fast forward speed and dove pretty well. Timm Webb jumps a bigger one all the time, he gets decent swoops on it, but he isn't a hard core swooper so you cant see the potential.
The one problem I can see from selling a canopy with a F111 bottom is the overall idea that F111=crappy canopy. Most skydivers associate the idea of any f111 on a canopy to mean that that canopy wont fly as good, so now to sell canopies you have to educate your market, and this is definnitly a hard thing to do. Your adding extra work, and marketing.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[Treejumps 0]

The way I see it, the only possible reason to use f-111 is to make it easier to pack. I know of no swooper who is worried about packing issues. ZP isn't hard to pack once you are used to it, or once the canopy has 100 jumps on it. Yes, brand new f-111 is nearly zero perosity (0 to 3 cfm to be precise) but it degrades with use, top or bottom skin. Not to mention I can't imagine that old canopies have nearly the pressurization of a cross braced canopy. F-111 is to canopies what velcro is to rigs. Sure it might work, but do you really want to fly it?

[Treejumps 0]

The way I see it, the only possible reason to use f-111 is to make it easier to pack. I know of no swooper who is worried about packing issues. ZP isn't hard to pack once you are used to it, or once the canopy has 100 jumps on it. Yes, brand new f-111 is nearly zero perosity (0 to 3 cfm to be precise) but it degrades with use, top or bottom skin. Not to mention I can't imagine that old canopies have nearly the pressurization of a cross braced canopy. F-111 is to canopies what velcro is to rigs. Sure it might work, but do you really want to fly it?

[sdctlc 0]

If anybody is interested this discussion or one very similar took place back in October:

www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/Gear_and_Rigging_F6/JumpShack_FireBolt_P257843/

Also I cant get onto the jumpshack web page? Did they change?

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Again, I get the feeling that you might believe that the course is now watered down, but they, the CD and Evaluators have to adhere to a standard. If they want to lose you, they will.

Compared to what? What does he normally fly?

When you get to less than 100 sq. ft., packing is very easy, ZP or F-111. Why not make it ZP? The more a canopy de-pressurizes as you land, the more is "scrunches" up, making the real sq. footage smaller, increasing the stall speed and shortening the distance of the swoop. An F-111 bottom skin allows the canopy to de-pressurize faster than a ZP bottom skin. It makes a bigger difference on the top skin, but it also makes a difference on the bottom skin. ZP openings have been tamed. I don't see where the trade-off is worth it in a high performance canopy.

I haven't jumped a Firebolt, so this is simply based on knowledge of other canopies/materials. It is possible that the F-111 bottom skin increases performance somehow, but I doubt it. Hey Jumpshack, send me a demo!

Hook

[turtlespeed 221]

Just landed a 35% off [Ron White]cupon[/Ron White] for one of these.

Have any opinions changed?

Any more opinions out there?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[cbain 0]

I have ~35-40 jumps on my 164 loaded at ~1.3.

I don't swoop (except maybe a little double fronts now and then) so can't say anything about that aspect of it. But I do want to start learning more about it eventually.

Just as a reference my past experience includes ~300 jumps on a Sabre2 190. And ~25 jumps on a Spectre 170.

The openings on the Firebolt are great. I've never had anything but smooth openings on mine. It is elliptical so I've actually learned how to fly the opening so to speak more than I had to on previous canopies. I think the openings (at least thus far) are better than what I got on the Sabre2 by far.

I also find the glide to be longer on the Firebolt. Front riser pressure is a lot less but I'm also loading the FB higher than the Sabre2.

The flare is very strong and it's pretty easy to get the canopy to "pop" back up when needed. It does have double brake lines but once you learn how to set them you don't even notice.

I've also read all about the F-111 and it wearing out but as has been pointed out and after talking to Nancy and John I feel that since it's the bottom skin it won't wear enough to make a difference in the life span of the canopy. But that's just my opinion. You may talk to Nancy about it if it concerns you.

Overall, it's been a nice transition to an elliptical for me and it's enough to keep me busy for many many jumps to come. It's fun using all inputs but not overly agressive either. I don't think it's appropriate for students as much as it is a middle-of-the-road canopy. I've also seen others getting some nice swoops on thiers but nothing I would think of as "competetion level" swooping.

I put 10 jumps on a demo before deciding to purchase. If you give them a call I'm sure they'd be willing to hook you up with a demo and then you can see if it fits what you want or not.

Christina

[Canuck 0]

I don't think this canopy has much if anything to do with the Turbo Z. For starters, it's a fully elliptical canopy. Secondly, it has a Crossfire type semi-closed leading edge.

The F111 bottom skin doesn't bother me so much as the fact that you can buy one that is 75 sq. ft or a tandem canopy. To me, a canopy that is suited to both ends can't be particularly strong at either. A bus is a bus, a sports car is a sports car. A sporty bus or a sports car with good hauling capacity? Ditto for the Cobalt and Cobalt tandem.

Canuck

[PhreeZone 20]

Read my review of it both here in the fourms and in the gear database. Nice openings, very Stiletto-ish. I was jumping a Cobalt also when I demoed it and thought they were extremely close together.

One thing I really do not like is that the Firebolt is a scalular design. I was told they made one design and blow it up or shrink it to get it to the manufactored size. There are large issues with that type of design. They are pushing the design as a perfect all around design. Same canopy design can be a tandem as can be a 75 foot swoopers canopy? I was also told right from JS that the reason for the double breaklines is thats the only way they could get the openings the way they wanted them. Most packers are clueless on how to pack double break lines.

Talk to PD, Aerodyne and Percision abouit how they actually need to tweek all the design settings of each size canopy to get them to fly exactly how they want them to fly if you want to learn a lot about scaled vs non-scaled designing. Hint, why is there no Katana 135 yet if it was easy as just scaling it up?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[LouDiamond 1]

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To me, a canopy that is suited to both ends can't be particularly strong at either.

Well since I jump this canopy on both ends of the spectrum, one being a 100 sq ft canopy and the other a 350 sq ft tandem I can tell you that normaly I would agree with you on your assesment but I don't think it applies here.


While it may not win any swoop meets, I can absolutely swoop the piss out of my Firebolt without much effort and I don't consider myself a swooper by any means. The smaller, heavier loaded versions of this canopy are very sporty and fun to fly with none of the high perf canopy quirks. I've jumped the 100- 350 range of sizes and can honestly say that the openings are consistant as one can hope for in skydiving. The flight characteristics are very similar although not as responsive as you load the canopy less. I can pop my 350 tandem up just as easy as I can on my 100. SM1 and I routinely get nice step down tandem landings on low wind days when others are sliding in, often with a little swoop action.

I feel so comfortable with the 100 that I use it on my BirdMan jumps as well as when I shoot tandem video as the openings are consistant and soft. You can fly the Firebolt aggresively and get really good response from it or you can fly it docile and land straight in without worries. Packing is a breaze,even when new and I haven't noticed a change in flight characteristics with over 500 jumps on my current canopy.


Like I tell everyone, you don't have to believe me, go out and jump one for yourself as peoples likes/dislikes vary.


editted for spelling

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Canuck 0]

That's awesome then. As usual, no chance for a demo up here in the Great White North, so I'll have to take your word for it.

Canuck

[LouDiamond 1]

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As usual, no chance for a demo up here in the Great White North, so I'll have to take your word for it.

Give them a call, I'd bet they will send you a demo

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Levin 0]

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I was jumping a Cobalt also when I demoed it and thought they were extremely close together.

Eric Butts told me that the Firebolt is modeled after the Cobalt. He's a test jumper for Atair and stays in contact with Jump Shack. All of his containers are Racers.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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I don't think this canopy has much if anything to do with the Turbo Z. For starters, it's a fully elliptical canopy. Secondly, it has a Crossfire type semi-closed leading edge.

The F111 bottom skin doesn't bother me so much as the fact that you can buy one that is 75 sq. ft or a tandem canopy. To me, a canopy that is suited to both ends can't be particularly strong at either. A bus is a bus, a sports car is a sports car. A sporty bus or a sports car with good hauling capacity? Ditto for the Cobalt and Cobalt tandem.

Canuck

I don't buy that at all as someone who has jumped every Cobalt derivative (including the tandem) and both the "sport" and tandem Firebolts. In both cases, scaling seems to have worked just fine. Just for the sake of comparison though, I would call both the Firebolt 350 and Cobalt 350 tandems "sporty". My Firebolt 350 flies exactly like a similarly sized Icarus tandem.

Chuck