The perfect swoop?

[jdfreefly 1]

A jumper at my home dz spent a while attempting what he had coined "the perfect swoop". To him, it had nothing to do with distance or speed. It was a front riser turn executed at the perfect altitude such that the canopy planed out even with the ground. This meant that he would need ABSOLUTELY no input to the toggles. Although, it also resulted in him running it out like a son of a bitch.

Rod's recent injury is what got me thinking about this. There are many people who are deemed great swoopers, that I have seen still in the dive and already giving brake input. That's great, they needed to. If they hadn't, they would've been hurt. Hell, I do it all the time. But I am wondering if people understand; an adjustment with the brakes before planing out, means you have turned too low or, held the dive for too long.

This season, I was thinking of moving from the crossfire2 I jump to a velocity. I think I will wait until I can, with some level of consistency, perform the perfect swoop for that canopy.

Best wishes to Rod and a prayer for a quick recovery.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

But I am wondering if people understand; an adjustment with the brakes before planing out, means you have turned too low or, held the dive for too long.

Depends on the canopy and wing loading. MY VX will not plane out w/o input. My Safire will climb w/o input. So that rule doesn't always hold true.

Hook

[TB99 0]

Some canopies have a negative recovery arc that need the input as well ...

There's no such thing as a "perfect swoop" ...

Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked!

[jdfreefly 1]

I haven't jumped a cross braced canopy so I can't speak for those. However, I have put many jumps on a safire and a crossfire 1 and 2. The safire never climbed on me as hook says. It has planed out 10 feet too high and dropped me like a bad habit (actually damaged my knee from hooking it too high) but it never actually gained altitude unless I gave it input.

The crossfire claims to have a "negative" recovery arc. This is not really true. If you hook it high enough it will plane out on its own, it will just take longer than any other conventional eliptical canopy.

I am anxious to try the velocity and the fx to see if this is also true. If it is I will eat my words.

Anyway, you guys are missing the point of my post. The point is, that in the progression from "using a parachute to safely deliver you to the ground" to "canopy pilot" you are bound to end up on a canopy where the kind of swoop I described is possible.

I am saying that maybe people need to be better taught the difference between a nice swoop and a timely stab to save your femur.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[PhreeZone 20]

Go check out some of the old footage of the Golden Knights from about I'd guess 8-10 years back. Throwing a wicked toggle hook low, using the natural recovery arc of their canopy to plane out and stop with out ever touching a toggle to stop. Granted a few of them got busted up doing this and toggle hooks went out of fashion like platform shoes... but on some canopies you can do this.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

The safire never climbed on me as hook says. It has planed out 10 feet too high and dropped me like a bad habit (actually damaged my knee from hooking it too high) but it never actually gained altitude unless I gave it input.

What size/wing loading was the Safire

Quote

The crossfire claims to have a "negative" recovery arc. This is not really true. If you hook it high enough it will plane out on its own, it will just take longer than any other conventional eliptical canopy.

Again, what size/wingloading? Try to get a Crossfire2 89 loaded at 2.1:1 to plane out w/o input.

Quote

Anyway, you guys are missing the point of my post. The point is, that in the progression from "using a parachute to safely deliver you to the ground" to "canopy pilot" you are bound to end up on a canopy where the kind of swoop I described is possible.

You're right, I did miss the point of your post. And you're right, that at some point as a person downsizes (if they do it slowly enough), the canopy they fly will plane out exactly level with the ground w/o input.

Hook

[AggieDave 6]

Farrington did a sweet no input swoop at nationals this past year. Then again, he did it toally with harness input, instead of a hook, but he still swooped the ever living snot out of the pond, without touching a toggle or riser.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[flyhi 24]

Quote

went out of fashion like platform shoes

They did? Bummer.

Does anyone know if it is technically correct to say that a canopy which requires input to plane out is dynamically unstable, much the same way an F-16 is considered unstable, and one which requires no input to plane out is considered stable?

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[jdfreefly 1]

Hook,

The safire was a 149 loaded at about 1.45. I had such a problem with the plane out and drop affect, which I think is worse on this canopy than any other I have ever jumped, that I used to hook it too low and dig out just to avoid it. Horrible habbit which I got over.

The crossfire2 is what I am currently jumping. It is a 119 loaded at about 1.95, depending on what part of the season you weigh me in, damn North Eastern winters!!!

I won't really believe in the idea of a negative recovery arc until I expeience it first hand. It just seems too many people hook it too low. If you say something, they use the negative recovery arc defense.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I have more to learn than I thought. Also, I felt people were hijacking the thread about Rod. I thought I would bring the conversation here where we could tastefully explore the issue.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

The safire was a 149 loaded at about 1.45. I had such a problem with the plane out and drop affect, which I think is worse on this canopy than any other I have ever jumped, that I used to hook it too low and dig out just to avoid it. Horrible habbit which I got over.

This is the exact trap that I have seen and why I feel learning to hook w/ too big a canopy (with too short a recovery arc) is dangerous. The pilot is constantly in the corner to prevent the possibility of planing out too high, ending up w/ an ankle burner of a landing.

Quote

The safire was a 149 loaded at about 1.45. I had such a problem with the plane out and drop affect, which I think is worse on this canopy than any other I have ever jumped, that I used to hook it too low and dig out just to avoid it. Horrible habbit which I got over.

The crossfire2 is what I am currently jumping. It is a 119 loaded at about 1.95, depending on what part of the season you weigh me in, damn North Eastern winters!!!

The largest canopy I have seen climb w/o input was a Stiletto 120. It really aggravated the pilot. It didn't climb much, but it did climb.

Quote

won't really believe in the idea of a negative recovery arc until I expeience it first hand

Fair enough.

Quote

It just seems too many people hook it too low. If you say something, they use the negative recovery arc defense.

You are probably right in the majority of cases. The canopy has to be fairly small and loaded up to not plane out w/o input, i.e. negative recovery arc.

Hook

[parachutist 2]

Quote

Hook,

The safire was a 149 loaded at about 1.45. I had such a problem with the plane out and drop affect, which I think is worse on this canopy than any other I have ever jumped, that I used to hook it too low and dig out just to avoid it. Horrible habbit which I got over.

That's where the Grab-the-other-riser technique comes into play. Let's say you do a 180 front left riser turn and come out too high..... keep holding that left riser down and grab the other one.. pull it down even with the left one and now you're flying straight ahead while still diving... so you don't lose your speed and plane out, and you don't keep turning. When you get down close to the ground, let up on those front risers evenly and flare.

"I had such a problem with the plane out and drop affect" That's actually called the Pendulum effect. You go into a dive and you're swung out behind the canopy... you come out of the dive and you're swung forward below or in front of the canopy.. then the canopy surges forward and you have no flare. So how do you avoid this? Do not allow yourself to get swung forward: keep up the forward speed by using both front risers for a straight-in front riser approach.

Chris Warnock

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

You go into a dive and you're swung out behind the canopy... you come out of the dive and you're swung forward below or in front of the canopy

Right. Also the more drag the canopy has, the farther foward you'll be and more likely to plane out w/o input. If there isn't enough drag to make the canopy "sit back", no plane-out.

Hook

[eames 0]

jdfreefly:

Quote

I won't really believe in the idea of a negative recovery arc until I expeience it first hand. It just seems too many people hook it too low. If you say something, they use the negative recovery arc defense.

Many people don't understand what is meant by a negative recovery arc. In fact, I don't use the term anymore for fear of a misunderstanding.

There is no canopy that will not come to a shallower glide angle than its natural glide angle after a speed building maneuver. Many crossbraced canopies will not flatten out completely (with respect to the ground), but they will all tend to pull out of a dive. I had absolutely no problem getting a Velocity loaded at 2.7 to fly shallower than its natural glide angle after building speed, then getting it to completely plane out with very little input.

If a person is doing HP landings and can't get his or her canopy to plane out naturally as much as is possible with that canopy before any input, then that person doesn't know the canopy well enough.

After a certain familiarity is reached however, a person may push a little deeper into the recovery arc to generate more speed, but that's a whole different topic.


AggieDave:

Quote

Farrington did a sweet no input swoop at nationals this past year. Then again, he did it toally with harness input, instead of a hook, but he still swooped the ever living snot out of the pond, without touching a toggle or riser.

Sorry, that's not quite accurate. He used his rear risers to plane out, then removed the input only after he was level. However, I do think it's possible to do what you're describing on a crossbraced canopy at the right wingloading.... But that's not what Andy did.

Jason

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Sorry, that's not quite accurate

Cool, thanks for clearing it up for me.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[eames 0]

Quote

Quote

The safire was a 149 loaded at about 1.45. I had such a problem with the plane out and drop affect, which I think is worse on this canopy than any other I have ever jumped, that I used to hook it too low and dig out just to avoid it. Horrible habbit which I got over.

This is the exact trap that I have seen and why I feel learning to hook w/ too big a canopy (with too short a recovery arc) is dangerous. The pilot is constantly in the corner to prevent the possibility of planing out too high, ending up w/ an ankle burner of a landing.

...and this is where we will always disagree, Hook. A very proficient swooper needs to know a canopy's recovery arc well, but a novice swooper should not rely on it when learning to swoop. A novice should start on the high side, and with a big canopy--if they find themselves too high, they need to pull themselves down a little more with double fronts before they lose all their speed and get dropped, even if that's not the most efficient way to do it, even if that landing wasn't absolutely optimal, but because it's the safest way to learn.

Jason

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

There is no canopy that will not come to a shallower glide angle than its natural glide angle after a speed building maneuver. Many crossbraced canopies will not flatten out completely (with respect to the ground), but they will all tend to pull out of a dive.

My VX doesn't return to shallower than it's natural glide angle after an aggressive turn. If it did, it would slow down below it's normal glide speed, then surge foward as it regained it's natural glide angle and speed. It doesn't.

Quote

...and this is where we will always disagree, Hook. A very proficient swooper needs to know a canopy's recovery arc well, but a novice swooper should not rely on it when learning to swoop. A novice should start on the high side, and with a big canopy--if they find themselves too high, they need to pull themselves down a little more with double fronts before they lose all their speed and get dropped, even if that's not the most efficient way to do it, even if that landing wasn't absolutely optimal, but because it's the safest way to learn.

It's OK to disagree. But someone learning to swoop falls into the corner trap very easily. Even if they use the double fronts, if they let off a little too early, they plane out too high, so they are always either turning a little low or letting off the doubles a little late. They are constantly in the corner with little margin of error. It is a trade off between speed and recovery arc. Slowest speed possible with the longest recovery arc possible gives the best enviroment for learning to swoop. At some point on the gragh, the speed and recovery arc lines cross.

I could very well be completely wrong though.

Hook

[eames 0]

Quote

My VX doesn't return to shallower than it's natural glide angle after an aggressive turn. If it did, it would slow down below it's normal glide speed, then surge foward as it regained it's natural glide angle and speed. It doesn't.

Yes, I'm perfectly okay with disagreeingbelow it's natural glide speed, I'd say it's because it can no longer maintain a speed higher than that of its natural glide speed. I'm not saying you're wrong, but let me show you the significance of that subtle difference in wording by asking you a question: On your VX, if you return to your natural glide angle, with more than your natural glide speed, are you not at that point producing more life than you would in natural glide? The obvious answer is yes. Would you not, therefore, have to conclude that since you are producing more lift in that configuration, that your glide angle would have to flatten out for at least a moment (albeit briefly and imperceptibly at your wingloading)? I ask this with the assumption that the forces of lift plus drag of the canopy are greater than the force of parasitic drag of the jumper alone at any given time.

Jason

[jdfreefly 1]

Quote

Even if they use the double fronts, if they let off a little too early, they plane out too high, so they are always either turning a little low or letting off the doubles a little late.

I agree with Hook on this one. When I was learning to swoop on my safire 149, if I hooked it too high or let off of the front risers too early, the result was a canopy that was so firm, trying to pull on the front risers again was like pulling on a steel bar, all that happened was I ended up pulling myself to them rather than pulling them down to me. Once that canopy crossed a certain point, there was no way to keep it down. This resulted me hooking it just to the wrong side of dangerous.

The result was that I did hook it in. It was one of those freakish occurences where every one that saw it thought they had just witnessed a fatality. Just as they are getting ready to dial 911, the jumper in question slowly rises to his feat, dusts himself off, and thanks the lord for momentarily changing the chemical composition of his bones to something aproximating rubber.

I learned my lesson. Take a look at my sig!

Hell, I thought I was dead. It is an awfull and helpless feeling when you see that ground coming at you and you know it's too late to dig out.

But I digress. The point is, that there are some canopy's that are not swoop friendly when lightly loaded. In my opinion, the safire is definately one of these. I am sure there are others. Perhaps, we need to get a better understanding of which canopys those are, so that begining swoopers can use one that will tolerate hooking too high. That is, after all, where they should be anyway(too high that is).

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[eames 0]

Quote

Slowest speed possible with the longest recovery arc possible gives the best enviroment for learning to swoop.

Please give me an example of a canopy that fits this billet. I only know of canopies that are either slow or have long recovery arcs. Slow canopies have a lot of drag, which shortens the recovery arc. Please explain.

Jason

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

I'm not saying you're wrong, but let me show you the significance of that subtle difference in wording by asking you a question: On your VX, if you return to your natural glide angle, with more than your natural glide speed, are you not at that point producing more life than you would in natural glide?

Good question. The way I percieve it is as my canopy slows towards it's natural (or steady state, we are defining a new new vocabulary here ) speed, it is returning to it's natural glide angle. They meet at the same time. As it decelerates it continues to return to it's natural glide angle, unitl it is at it's natural glide angle and speed. I believe it is because my body has more drag than the canopy.

Good debate.

Hook

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Please give me an example of a canopy that fits this billet. I only know of canopies that are either slow or have long recovery arcs. Slow canopies have a lot of drag, which shortens the recovery arc. Please explain.

You are absolutely right of course. Can't have it both ways.

I think the best conditions to learn to hook turn under is with as big a canopy as possible, to keep the speeds as low as possible, but with the longest recovery arc possible. It is a trade-off. Smaller canopy for longer recovery arc, bigger canopy for slower speeds. My best feeling is a fully elliptical (tapered) at about 1.5-1.6:1 wing loading. A Stiletto, Cobalt, Crossfire, Heatwave, something along those lines. Smaller or bigger jumpers may have to adjust those numbers to account for the smaller or larger canopies needed to get that wing loading.

Obviously, only after proficiency is achieved on the canopy at that loading, or even better, get proficient on a slightly smaller canopy, then up-size on size to learn to hook.

High enough loading and small enough canopy that the recovery arc isn't too short, with a super-fast canopy.

I think it is a bad idea to hook a Manta 288, the margins of error is simply too small. Learning to hook turn on a VX-79 is also a bad idea, the speed is simply too high. Somewhere in the middle has to be the ideal canopy/wing loading combination to learn on.

I think learning to hook turn is extremely dangerous because the pilot doesn't know he is too low until it is too late. We can see immediately after or even before our turn if we are to low and fix it before it becomes an issue. That is because we have the sight picture of what it is supposed to look like. Without that sight picture, they are guessing.

What do you think?

Hook

[eames 0]

A "swoop friendly" canopy is no less difficult to get in the corner. And unless you load it at 3.1, you're going to notice that a "swoop friendly" canopy also tends to plane out when you let off the front risers. The difference being that when you pound in on a "swoop friendly" canopy you're not going to stand up and brush it off like you did. Aren't you glad that you paid your dues on a Safire 149? I'm glad that I paid my dues on bigger canopies.... I'm glad that when I pounded in it was on a Safire 169.

I would advise people to err on the big, slow, high side, regardless of how stupid they look or how many ankle burners they take. There are ways to avoid the corner and still have a good swoop. I'll be glad to talk to you about it sometime. Obviously (but maybe this isn't a concern for you), too many people (that would have probably agreed with you) had decided that they needed a more "swoop friendly" canopy and proceeded to kill themselves on it.

Jason

[eames 0]

I see your point, but how does a newbie who is eager to swoop work up to...

Quote

a fully elliptical (tapered) at about 1.5-1.6:1 wing loading.

?????

Wouldn't you expose them to high speed landings before they reached this point? I believe that you are describing a very dangerous leap. And if you admit that you do expose them to induced high speed landings before that point then you are conceding to the fact that you also start people out on low performance canopies, are you not?

Jason

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Wouldn't you expose them to high speed landings before they reached this point? I believe that you are describing a very dangerous leap. And if you admit that you do expose them to induced high speed landings before that point then you are conceding to the fact that you also start people out on low performance canopies, are you not?

Of course, expose them to a very slow, 45 degree-ish carve, or double fronts. But not a turn that really brings the recovery arc of the canopy into play.

I think that is where we are missing. Sure do anything you want on larger canopys (and they should), except aggressive turns, either carve or snap hook with them.

I am not saying downsize and go hook. I am saying I don't think hook turning large canopys is a good idea. Work down to a 1.5:1-ish wing loading, get very proficient at that loading, (or even a bit higher and upsize to begin work on more aggressive hook turns), then work on double fronts (that you worked on under previous canopies, getting the control motions and reactions of the canopy down), then move up to slow, carving turns. Then and only then, the more aggressive hook turns (carving or snap, chose your flavor, and I think the canopy has to be very small for snap hooks to work out well).

Hook

[eames 0]

Quote

The way I percieve it is as my canopy slows towards it's natural (or steady state, we are defining a new new vocabulary here ) speed, it is returning to it's natural glide angle. They meet at the same time. As it decelerates it continues to return to it's natural glide angle, unitl it is at it's natural glide angle and speed. I believe it is because my body has more drag than the canopy.

Well, I appreciate your interpretation, but I'll have to politely disagree. I've already shared my opinion on this point, so I'll leave it at that.

Jason