The perfect swoop?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Well, I appreciate your interpretation, but I'll have to politely disagree. I've already shared my opinion on this point, so I'll leave it at that.

Fair enough

Hook

[eames 0]

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I am saying I don't think hook turning large canopys is a good idea.

...and I agree with that, of course. I think you're right, we're probably not quite on the same page.... a slight terminology discrepancy maybe... but still a little bit of disagreement
I would emphasize the earlier part of the progression more. I think it's the critical part. Yeah, you can get away with more on a smaller canopy, but only if you've properly worked your way up to it.

Edit: Please, everybody, don't misinterpret my last sentence. It only works in this context. I certainly don't mean that anyone can get away with more on a smaller canopy.

Jason

[Hooknswoop 19]

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...and I agree with that, of course. I think you're right, we're probably not quite on the same page.... a slight terminology discrepancy maybe... but still a little bit of disagreement.

I would emphasize the earlier part of the progression more. I think it's the critical part. Yeah, you can get away with more on a smaller canopy, but only if you've properly worked your way up to it.

Edit: Please, everybody, don't misinterpret my last sentence. It only works in this context. I certainly don't mean that anyone can get away with more on a smaller canopy.

I think we pretty much agree, well close anyway, and would agree more if I could actually write down what I am thinking. It is hard to put into written words.

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I would emphasize the earlier part of the progression more. I think it's the critical part. Yeah, you can get away with more on a smaller canopy, but only if you've properly worked your way up to it.

Definately in 100% agreement here. The early part is, if anything, more important.

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Edit: Please, everybody, don't misinterpret my last sentence. It only works in this context. I certainly don't mean that anyone can get away with more on a smaller canopy.

And in 1000% agreement here.

Hook

[jdfreefly 1]

Obviously the subject needs to be discussed over some beers and face to face.

I have to say that I tend to find myself agreeing with both of you and disagreeing with both of you.

Jason, the landings I experienced on my safire were not ankle burners, they were patela tearers. So while I definately agree that had my fuck up been under my crossfire 119, I would most likely be dead, I like what Hook is saying. Maybe instead of encouraging that buding swooper to ditch his 170 for a 150, we should be telling them to ditch the 170 square for a 170 eliptical.

By we I mean the sport, I try not to give advice outside the realm of, "Don't you think that was a little low?"

Good discussion guys. One thing is obvious, there are no easy answers in this discipline. We need to research this more. I propose that the three of us go out this weekend and swoop our asses off.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[eames 0]

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Jason, the landings I experienced on my safire were not ankle burners, they were patela tearers.

While we're on the subject, allow me to explain to you how to always turn on the high side and never have another patela tearer.

If you wait until the canopy surges, it's already too late, you've missed your opportunity to fix it. You said at a certain point, pulling on your front risers was like pulling on a steel bar, right? Well, while you were swooping along at 30 ft, your speed was decreasing. Somewhere between your planeout and the surge, there was a point at which your front risers became managable again. If you take advantage of that opportunity (and go against all your instincts), and simply lower yourself a little using your front risers, you'll be left with plenty of speed to salvage a decent flare. You need to do it as soon as possible in the swoop--almost immediatly. Doing it too late may actually make things worse, so try it up high.

It may look stupid, but it's better than getting busted up, and it's also better than downsizing when a person is obviously not ready to.

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I propose that the three of us go out this weekend and swoop our asses off.

Deal. I won't argue with that!

Jason

[Hooknswoop 19]

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It may look stupid

If it's stupid, but it works, it isn't stupid.

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but it's better than getting busted up, and it's also better than downsizing when a person is obviously not ready to.

Definately

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I propose that the three of us go out this weekend and swoop our asses off.

I'm in

Hook

[crazy 0]

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if I hooked it too high or let off of the front risers too early, the result was a canopy that was so firm, trying to pull on the front risers again was like pulling on a steel bar, all that happened was I ended up pulling myself to them rather than pulling them down to me

At this point, rather than pulling vainly downwards on the front risers, push them frontwards. This will be much easier and it will increase significantly the recovery arc. If you were not that high, then you will still have a decent swoop and a soft landing. If you were way too high, just add more input progressively when the canopy slows down. This way, you can easily keep the speed and the dive a bit steeper than the normal glide, hence no surge; you might even still have a decent swoop.
Get used to this technique, then you will not be tempted anymore to hook too low.
Alternately, you can pull the risers sidewards. Both techniques will distort the front risers, hence reduce the angle of attack (which increases the recovery arc). Pushing frontwards has an additional effect, it also keeps your body further back.

--
Come
Skydive Asia

[AggieDave 6]

I don't buy that this works any differently. Although I would like to be proved wrong (its fun, I get to learn).

The only reason I can think of is if someone doesn't have the upperbody strength to be able to hang and forcefully pull the front risers down when the canopy is trying to pull up into its recovery arc. I've played with keeping my canopy in a double-front dive before, seeing how long I could keep it there...well, I reached a point where I was basically doing a flexed arm hang on my front risers, lifted all the weight off my leg straps, pulling myself up to the front risers (i'm glad the leg straps stayed in place on my legs). I was able to hold that until my fingers started to hurt from the dive loops...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[crazy 0]

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I don't buy that this [pushing the risers frontwards] works any differently [from pulling straignt down]. Although I would like to be proved wrong

That's basic physics. The best way to know is to try it.
If you can't wait until your next jump, you can experiment with a rope and a load (let's say 100 lbs). Hang up the load and try to reduce the distance between the load and the anchor point at the top of the rope.
If you pull vertically, you have to pull at least 100lbs, else there is no effect at all.
On the other hand, as soon as you push on the middle of the rope, you create an angle, hence the distance shortens. For instance, if you push with the same strength that you would need to lift 10lbs, you create an angle of ~6 degrees, this shortens the distance by ~5%. If you push with "50lbs", the distance shortens by ~25%.
Back to skydiving, when your canopy recovers from a dive, your apparent weight increases (let's say it becomes 300lbs), and most of the load is on the front risers (let's say 30% on each front riser). If you try to pull straight down, you will do nothing else than hurting your hands as long as you don't pull "90lbs" or more with each hand.
However, pushing on the risers, 1 foot above the 3-rings, will easily create an angle of a few degrees. This small angle will shorten the distance between the 3-rings and the bottom of the lines, maybe by 1 or 2 inches. This sounds small, but 1 inch will increase the recovery arc significantly.

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I reached a point where I was basically doing a flexed arm hang on my front risers, lifted all the weight off my leg straps, pulling myself up to the front risers (i'm glad the leg straps stayed in place on my legs).

That's surprising. When you pull on the front risers, you still have the rear risers to hold part of your weight. This force is transmitted to the harness, hence to the leg straps. Even though it's much less than your full weight, it should be significant, like 30-40% of your weight.

--
Come
Skydive Asia

[relyon 0]

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However, pushing on the risers, 1 foot above the 3-rings, will easily create an angle of a few degrees. This small angle will shorten the distance between the 3-rings and the bottom of the lines, maybe by 1 or 2 inches. This sounds small, but 1 inch will increase the recovery arc significantly.

It's not the 1" of riser pull that does it, it's a chordwise flatter canopy. A 1" vertical deflection 12" above the 3-rings requires 5" of horizontal deflection. That effectively flattens the canopy similar to having a longer lineset, and that increases the recovery arc.

The problem with this method is dimished control relative to front risering (not known for having a lot of control to begin with) and the potential for surge when transitioning to rear controls.

Bob

[rhino 0]

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I am not saying downsize and go hook. I am saying I don't think hook turning large canopys is a good idea. Work down to a 1.5:1-ish wing loading, get very proficient at that loading, (or even a bit higher and upsize to begin work on more aggressive hook turns), then work on double fronts (that you worked on under previous canopies, getting the control motions and reactions of the canopy down), then move up to slow, carving turns. Then and only then, the more aggressive hook turns (carving or snap, chose your flavor, and I think the canopy has to be very small for snap hooks to work out well).

I agree totally. I really understood why you say this after hooking into the ground under a Triathlon at 1.25.