swooping and canopy size

[allicat 0]

Hi I'm a newbie- just got my A. I recently purchased a used rig from another jumper at my DZ. The main is a 220. I know, it's large but it's old too and I plan on putting a smaller one in before too long (the container will fit it). My question: is there a certain size canopy above which you cannot learn to swoop? Does it have to be smaller than a 220 to even think about swooping?

Also, what can I start practicing (up high of course) in order to start learning about carving/hooks/swooping?

[Hooknswoop 19]

First, slow down. Learn to fly the canopy you have in normal flight.

Second, After you have become proficient with the canopy (Bill Von has a great list of tasks you should be able to perform under a canopy before even considering downsizing), you can learned straight in, double front riser approaches with it, or small heading changes, front riser approaches.

Third, I would discourage you from aggressive front risers turns with this canopy.

Fourth, Why do you want to downsize? Are you aware of the risks involved in learning high performance landings? Do you accept that an incident is possible? Are you willing to put in the effort, money, and time it takes to learn high performance canopy flight?

Lastly, I cannot over-emphasize the need for patience and careful progression in high performance landings. Do not take this goal lightly. Do not underestimate the amount of effort it would require to reach this goal. People make them look easy, after hundreds, or even thousands of these landings. Similar to an experienced packer making packing ZP look easy. The first step is to learn what you don't know. By that, I mean learn what you will have to know to become a good canopy pilot. Then, preferably with solid coaching, begin to learn good canopy piloting techniques. Equipment knowledge goes hand in hand with flying high performance canopies. Do you know what riser inserts are?, etc. High performance equals high maintenance. I think you will be surprised how much there is to learn, and leaving out any of it can cost you.

Hook

[AggieDave 6]

Hey, something to think about, last week I swooped almost 40ft on a 300sq ft Navigator.

Here's my point: Just about anything can swoop, do what Hooknswoop said and take it SLOW. You'll get there.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Just about anything can swoop

True, I've seen people hook tandems, at ridiciously low altitudes. I feel that the margin for error is less on, for example, that Navigator 300. The recovery arc is too short. How high did you hook it? How much lower coud you have hooked it and still pulled it off? How much higher could you have hooked it? You have hook turn experience, on a different canopy. How did hooking the Navigator differ from you Heatwave?

Again, you are right, anything CAN be hooked, but SHOULD you?

Hook

[allicat 0]

Thanks you both for your advice. I totally agree that I need to take this VERY slowly. I know that high performance landings done by an inexperienced jumper are very dangerous. For now I will just stick to learning what I can up high. WHERE can I get Bill Von's list of tasks?? I will be happy with simply trying to master those before I even think about doing stuff low. It's good to know though, too, that I can swoop on a canopy as large as mine (when the time comes). I don't know why I felt the need to downsize. I have been jumping a 210 rental b/c I am waiting on a new reserve handle for the rig I bought. My exit weight is 160. I guess it's that most everyone at my DZ flies small canopies. But I told myself when I first started skydiving that I would never allow "peer pressure" to persude me to do something beyond what my gut tells me I should. So, at least for a while, I'll be satisfied with my 220.

[AggieDave 6]

I said I swooped it, I didn't say I hooked it. I did a carving turn with a toggle (no dive loops and the front riser pressure is pretty damned high).

How did it differ? Well, you were right, I was much lower then with my heatwave, the speed was pretty damned slow too.

As for margin of error, how I did it, a carving turn instead of a hook, I could bail at any moment with opposite input. Bailing, directly into a flair.

A safer approach would have probably been a braked approach, letting the canopy surge forward at a higher altitude to build speed, but that's not what I wanted to do.

Once again I want to say, I said anything can be swooped. Not "anything can be hooked." There is a HUGE difference and as you know, you don't have to hook to swoop.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hooknswoop 19]

You are right, sorry for impling/saying you hooked it.

My point was turning front riser landings under big canopies isn't a good idea. Toggle turns are even worse.

Again, sorry, you are right, anything can be swooped.

My point is I think not everything can be hooked safely, toggles or risers.

Hook

[Samurai136 0]

Talk to the experiencecd people out there at Carolina SkySports. I know there are many good swoopers out there that will set you on the 'safe' route to swooping.

Give it some time. Work on landing accurately, and get a canopy you can do CRW with. Doing CRW will teach you how to fly w/ your risers and w/ precision.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[towerrat 0]

***I know that high performance landings done by inexperienced jumpers are dangerous

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I think you miss the point. High performance landings done by ANYONE are EXTREMELY dangerous.Always remember that.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

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[RichM 0]

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WHERE can I get Bill Von's list of tasks??

Clicky

Rich M

[allicat 0]

gotcha

[allicat 0]

muchas, muchas gracias

[base570 1]

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Thanks you both for your advice. I totally agree that I need to take this VERY slowly. I know that high performance landings done by an inexperienced jumper are very dangerous. For now I will just stick to learning what I can up high. WHERE can I get Bill Von's list of tasks?? I will be happy with simply trying to master those before I even think about doing stuff low. It's good to know though, too, that I can swoop on a canopy as large as mine (when the time comes). I don't know why I felt the need to downsize. I have been jumping a 210 rental b/c I am waiting on a new reserve handle for the rig I bought. My exit weight is 160. I guess it's that most everyone at my DZ flies small canopies. But I told myself when I first started skydiving that I would never allow "peer pressure" to persude me to do something beyond what my gut tells me I should. So, at least for a while, I'll be satisfied with my 220.

Hi Allison,
I would say to definitely take it slow and try to seek the advive of someone who knows what the hell they are talking about and not someone who just is trying to look cool with a small canopy (and there are many out there!) I'm sure your a little too new at CSS to have known Eric D. (RIP)but he was an outstanding canopy pilot who really understood parachutes and how they flew. He jumped large canopies all the time and would out swoop most, if not all of the so called "expert" canopy pilots at the DZ. He took the time to learn on bigger stuff and I believe it made him a much more "heads-up" canopy pilot when it came time for him to downsize.
Not everyone at CSS has small canopies, I just think you are seeing the instructors and a handfull of experienced jumpers more because they jump more than anyone else. I'm not saying that there are not people at CSS that are jumping canopies that are way too small for them, because there are. (just watch a few loads and you'll be able to pick them out pretty easy). Most of the jumpers at CSS realize that they aren't current enough and don't have the experience or skill to jump really tiny canopies in a great LZ, let alone a hilly, non-flat, bumpy LZ like at CSS. Allison I realize that it looks cool to swoop a canopy but it takes years and years and many hundreds or even thousands of jumps to really learn how canopies fly and react in different situations. Your best bet is to learn to fly the crap out of the canopy you have then think about something different. Hell, my first 300 or so jumps were on a 220sf 7 cell with approx. the same wing loading as what you have now, and I tell you what... it saved my ass on more than one occasion and I think I learned way more about canopy flight on those jumps than a lot of people at our DZ will ever learn because they want to "be cool" and downsize too fast while not fully grasping basic canopy flight. This type of attitude will eventually come back to bite them, I think.
So... now that I've rambled on for way too long I'll leave you with this;
1. Take it slow
2. learn and understand the basics fully then use that as your building blocks to go further.
3. Ask as many people as you can about it. (not just the swoopers, some might have a biased opinion)
4. when you think your ready to downsize, go and land off in a tight LZ a couple of times and see if you change your mind.
5. practice, practice, practice.

Jason M.
Be safe!! Have fun!!!
skydiving is really fun but it's no fun when your in the hospital!!

[allicat 0]

Busted! Didn't know that was you Jason. In any case, thanks very much for your advice. I read your post twice, carefully, and will read it again I'm sure. I totally get what you and the others are saying. I want to know my limits and respect them in all aspects of this sport so I agree with what you wrote. This is actually my promise to myself b/c I am the type of person who tends to want to do things too fast. But it's also good to know that I didn't make a bad decision buying a canopy on the large side, and that flying it for a while may even make me a better canopy pilot in the long run. For now I will be more than content learning the basics.

[base570 1]

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Busted! Didn't know that was you Jason. In any case, thanks very much for your advice. I read your post twice, carefully, and will read it again I'm sure. I totally get what you and the others are saying. I want to know my limits and respect them in all aspects of this sport so I agree with what you wrote. This is actually my promise to myself b/c I am the type of person who tends to want to do things too fast. But it's also good to know that I didn't make a bad decision buying a canopy on the large side, and that flying it for a while may even make me a better canopy pilot in the long run. For now I will be more than content learning the basics.

Don't think of it as getting "busted", I think it's great that you are asking questions and trying to learn as much as possible. Most people don't. Just remember that on your quest for knowledge, be sure to get many opinions from many sources, weigh them out in your mind and then make your own judgements as to what seems the most safe, logical and right way for you.

Jason
PS... getting "Busted" sounds like what happens when people fly their canopies into the ground.

[base698 14]

Also, tend to get multiple opinions from anyone whose opinion you respect. If you ever think you are doing anything right you likely are not, so ask other peoples opinion about your performance (this can be frustrating). People have a tendency to talk shit behind your back more than to your face, so quiz people about what you are doing wrong and really examine your abilities before trying new things. That is just unfortunate but it is the way things go sometimes.

CSS DZ.com person #3

[allicat 0]

Thanks guys. See you this weekend? The weather for tomorrow is looking slightly better. *keeping fingers crossed* Sunday looks great.

[billdo 0]

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My point was turning front riser landings under big canopies isn't a good idea. Toggle turns are even worse.

My point is I think not everything can be hooked safely, toggles or risers.

Hook

Why is this? I understand that to learn to swoop on a very large canopy (that recovers very quickly) might set someone up for trouble when they downsize to a canopy that has a long recovery arc, because they're used to hooking it so low. But are there other reasons that one shouldn't hook a large canopy? I have a feeling for what you might mean, but please explain further.

Thanks

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Why is this? I understand that to learn to swoop on a very large canopy (that recovers very quickly) might set someone up for trouble when they downsize to a canopy that has a long recovery arc, because they're used to hooking it so low. But are there other reasons that one shouldn't hook a large canopy? I have a feeling for what you might mean, but please explain further.

The advantage to hooking a large canopy is the speed never builds up all that high. The disadvantage to hooking really big canopies is that the recovery arc is very short (I'll cover that in a sec), and if hooked even a little too high, it planes out above the ground, bleeds off all the speed, down to below it's normal full flight speed, leaving the pilot at low altitude with little speed for the flare. So the pilot tends to always hook a little low to prevent this from happening. Let's say you can initiate a hook turn up to 10% low from the ideal altitude and not impact the ground. Let's also say the ideal hook altitude for canopy XXX is 150 feet. This means you have a 15 foot margin of error from ideal to too low. Since it is too easy to fall into the trap of always being in the corner, the pilot is always eating into that 15-foot margin, leaving even less than 15 feet of the ideal to too low 'window'. Eventually they will be off 15 feet, but since they are already eating into their window, there isn't enough margin for error and they hit.

The advantage to hooking a smaller canopy is the longer recovery arc. The disadvantage is that the speed builds up fast and top speed is very high. That same 10% margin on an ideal hook altitude of 500 feet is 50 feet, a 35-foot increase. It is much easier to hit the window.

Now this doesn't mean go buy a very small canopy and start learning to hook and you'll be fine. I believe that the ideal canopy to learn hook turns on is somewhere between the large/slow/short recovery arc canopy and the small/fast/long recovery arc canopy. And this is only after working down to this 'trade-off' or 'happy medium' canopy and being very proficient with it. Also, the mechanics of faster approaches under large canopies are the same as smaller canopies, except slower. Therefore it makes sense to learn the mechanics of high speed approaches with a forgiving canopy. Just stay away from any low-altitude aggressive front riser (and definitely stay away from low altitude toggle turns on any canopy) turns on large canopies.

Now the fine print: All this may be 100% wrong. It is what I believe based on my experience and experiences. If you only listen to me and only take my advice, you would be a fool. A friend of mine said that in medical school, they told him "30% of what we are going to teach you is wring, we just don't know which 30% it is." I try for better than 30%, but I don't have any real way of knowing the exact percentage I am wrong on this.

Hook

[crazy 0]

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Let's say you can initiate a hook turn up to 10% low from the ideal altitude and not impact the ground. Let's also say the ideal hook altitude for canopy XXX is 150 feet. This means you have a 15 foot margin of error from ideal to too low. [...] That same 10% margin on an ideal hook altitude of 500 feet is 50 feet, a 35-foot increase. It is much easier to hit the window.

Most people will make a much bigger error in their estimation of 500 feet than 150 feet. Let's say that the error of the pilot is 20%, from 150 feet, this is 30 feet, he can save 15, he impacts to -15 feet, a decent hole. From 500 feet the error is 100 feet, he can save 50 feet, he still impacts to -50 feet, 35 feet deeper. A much bigger hole in the turf.

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if hooked even a little too high, it planes out above the ground, bleeds off all the speed, down to below it's normal full flight speed, leaving the pilot at low altitude with little speed for the flare. So the pilot tends to always hook a little low to prevent this from happening.

There are efficient recovery methods for this. Teach the technique for recovery first. Once the pilot can still have a nice landing (even a decent swoop) after hooking too high, he won't be tempted to hook too low.

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"30% of what we are going to teach you is wring, we just don't know which 30% it is." I try for better than 30%, but I don't have any real way of knowing the exact percentage I am wrong on this.

if we are lucky, maybe together we hit 50%.

--
Come
Skydive Asia

[billdo 0]

Wow! these are very cool ideas.

I think I'm lucky enough to be on my "happy medium" canopy right now (and I love it so much I don't see ANY plans for future downsizing)

Thanks guys.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Most people will make a much bigger error in their estimation of 500 feet than 150 feet. Let's say that the error of the pilot is 20%, from 150 feet, this is 30 feet, he can save 15, he impacts to -15 feet, a decent hole. From 500 feet the error is 100 feet, he can save 50 feet, he still impacts to -50 feet, 35 feet deeper. A much bigger hole in the turf.

I don't think the altitude estimation (sight picture) error is a straight-line graph, meaning that at 150 feet you may be accurate to 10-15 feet and at 500 feet you may be accurate to 40-60 feet. Also, I think the amount that is 'fixable' from the higher altitude is more than at the lower altitudes.

Hook

[sarge 0]

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I think the amount that is 'fixable' from the higher altitude is more than at the lower altitudes.

I totally agree, and

Your previous post is most candid and in your style, backed-up with substinance. Rarely can I get 'friends' to make less than equivical statements with any precision on height/speed/distance questions?

No, I wouldn't buy it wholesale either, but it makes strides in the 'sharing of information.'

Thanks again.

--
I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!!

[rhino 0]

The window under say my Crossfire2, 97 sqft, loading at 1.95 is much greater than 50-60 feet. The way that you and I hook anyways. The 180 to 270 hook and dive on front risers. I can make that 270 turn in NO TIME, And stay in the dive as long or as short as I like based on site picture.

My turn in altitude is roughly 550-600 feet for max speed and dive for my double front dive. Because I have so much more control over the dive of my canopy, and the longer recovery arc I could enter that same dive at 400 feet and simply let up on the front risers as I hit my sight picture for the swoop. Granted I won't have the same speed but I fly the same line under canopy if I enter a 180-270 at 400 feet vs 600 feet. It is much easier being able to have such a longer recovery arc to play with.

I know you know what I am talking about Hook..

Rhino