Importance of downsizing in swoop devolpment?

[Skypup 0]

This thread has several parts:

1. What was your canopy progression?
Canopy type and size/ wingloading / # of jumps on it

2. How important do you feel down sizing is in developing swoop skills?

I noticed that most of the PD swoop team down sized rather quickly to 120 sq. ft. canopies. Several of them doing demos for 25 jumps then going smaller.

Do you think it is better to become a monster swooper on a rather large canopy, then bring the size down, or to down size as you become comfortable with each canopy in all sorts of conditions then really hone your swoop skills?

T.S.S # 5
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To dream great dreams is itself an act of daring. -Eric Shipton & Bill Tilman
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[f1freak 0]

I am by no means an authority....
BUt i think it VERY important to learn all of the basics (understand the mechanics of canopy flight) under lightly loaded canopy. when you have be basics mastered the down sizing can progress faster....

HAVE FUN...
...JUST DONT DIE

[slayer21016 2]

I went from a 250 f111 to a z-p 150 pretty large change over night but i waited until i had 300 jumps before this change. i think that learning to swoop under a slightly larger canopy and then transitioning down is better than just doing a massive down sizing. i am under a stiletto 120/135s now but have jumped as small as a 97 and really did not see or feel the change that i was told to expect?. (tell tim i said hi)

[RichM 0]

I am also no expert but I have found that canopy choice has played a significant factor for me. I downsized from a 170 Sabre to a 135 Sabre to a 120 Sabre and my swoops were pathetic, I was downsizing to get better swoops but my technique was being hampered by a canopy that just doesn't swoop well. I swapped to a Xfire 119 and my swoops are now getting much much better. If I knew then what I know now I would probably have gone for a Xfire 129 instead of the Sabre 135/120 and would still be jumping it now. I reckon I could swoop a Sabre reasonably well now, but I don't think it was a good canopy to try to learn on.

Rich M

[ianmdrennan 2]

Progression
1. Skymaster - 32 jumps
2. 210 Cruiselite 1 jump
3. 150 ZP (Sabre equiv) 66 jumps
4. Heatwave 135 - Hooked it in before I even did 30 jumps on it - 121 jumps.
5. Heatwave - about 50 to 100 ditched the because of the short recovery arc.
7. Hurricane - 300 to 350 - much longer recovery arc.
6. Velocity 96 - all the rest.

Personally I think downsizing so fast HURT my skills initially. I came from a DZ where no-one knew any better and there was no-one to learn from (up to the end of my 135 stage) - not that it makes it OK but we learn from our mistakes, if we're lucky and don't die.
I was headed for distaster before one of the local dz pilots took me under his wing and put me on the right path - making sure I learned flight characteristics I should have learnt on the bigger canopies.

If you want to learn to swoop, speak to KNOWLEDGABLE swoopers at your DZ, ask them how your flying is, and for the recommended steps you need to take to downsize - hell, contact Scott Miller, Team extreme, or any one of those people and attend a canopy class. Remember buy a canopy for WORST case scenario. Most people don't think "can I land this in any scenario safely" and instead consider the average day of jumping - big mistake - don't make it when you consider your purchase options.

Also PD's education center have articles on their website about chosing the right canopy part 1 and part 2
Hooknswoop (and others) have some interesting comments on learning to swoop on canopies with longer dive arcs, look around the forums, they're on top of their game.

Sooooo....in a nutshell - I say master each canopy - it'll make you a more efficient and safer swooper, at least I believe so.

My 0.02c. Be careful.

Blue skies and safe swoops,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Ron 10]

I was
downsizing to get better swoops but my technique was being hampered by a canopy that just doesn't
swoop well.

Quote

I bet I can swoop a Sabre better than you can swoop your crossfire.

It's not the canopy that had trouble swooping, it was YOU had trouble swooping the canopy.

Too many times people thing its the canopy/wingload that is the holy grail of swooping....Yes, a good pilot under a better wing will get better swoops, but a bad pilot under a great wing will still get crap swoops.

ITS NOT THE WING.....It is the skill of the pilot.

FWIW...The Xfire 119 is about the size of a PD 107 Sabre. This can lead you to think that it is a better swoop...I bet yout technique is still not optimal, and a lot more can be done to improve your swooping skills.

Me?
160#.

250 Jumps on Raven II. 220 sf 7 cell.
120 jumps on a Esprit 120 9 cell ZP.
20 jumps Stiletto 97...Too small to learn on for me.
400 jumps on a Stiletto 120
*1000 jumps Stiletto 107
*500 jumps Star Trac I 240ish sf 7 cell accuracy canopy.
100 jumps Velocity 96.
I now back under the Stiletto 107...I can do more with that canopy than the Velocity, and I had to give it back to the sponsor.

* jumping these at the same time.

you can learn more at a lower wingload...And mistakes are not as costly.

Don't rush it....You can learn under any wing.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ianmdrennan 2]

whoops - the hurricane and heatwave were 120's. Forgot to put that in and edit time has passed.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Cajun 0]

100 jumps on student gear
150 jumps on a pro series 210 (sabre knock off)
25 jumps on a borrowed stiletto 170
100 jumps on a sabre 150
30 jumps on a jedei 150

weight has been about 200lbs dry the whole time.

I've found that the best thing that's help me as far as changing canopies in going from my sabre to my jedei. Same size but the jedei will keep diving after a turn helping to build up and keep speed.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

1. Canopy progression & wing loading

My weight was arround 150-155 while bicycle racing, maxed out at 180, and I am now 155-160. I've made a couple hundred jumps at sea-level boogies, although all the rest have been at 4500-6000 feet MSL so I'm probably jumping canopies 1-2 sizes bigger than I would at sea level.

I pretty much jumped what I had until I felt a real need for more speed, resulting in the following progression:

12 jumps under Sky Master 295s and Manta 288s
70ish jumps under a Turbo Z 205 @ .88
12 jumps under a Sabre 170 @ 1.06
100ish jumps under a Monarch 155 @ 1.16
150ish jumps under a Monarch 135 @ 1.33-1.52 before acquiring other canopies, 100+ after.
250ish jumps under a Batwing 134 @ 1.5ish
600+ on my Stiletto 120 mostly at 1.67, but now <= 1.50
20+ on a Samurai 120 @ 1.67 (loved it, but not fast enough)
0 on my new Samurai 105 @ 1.67 - 1.71 ( After my belly stayed shrunken I ordered one and it arrived this afternoon)

I also put a few jumps on various other parachutes at up to 1.9 pounds/square foot; concluded that traditional ellipticals don't work well at elevation when loaded that high (shorter swoops, unpleasantly high stall speeds) and that cross-braced canopies aren't as enjoyable to fly.

Up here, I suspect that you start loosing glide and swoop length past about 1.4 pounds/square foot on ZP squares, 1.7 on non-airlocked ellipticals, somewhere between on less extreme non-square planforms, and a bit past 1.7 on more modern non-cross braced ellipticals.

2. I don't think a large size is too important (smaller canopies are more responsive to weight shift, giving you another control that works well), although canopy type definately is. A long, slightly negative recovery arc is more forgiving of starting too high so you start higher, stay out of the corner, and don't get in the habit of digging yourself out and loosing distance. Elliptical canopies give you more time to play on post-planeout carving turns, although their increased control sensitivity makes them inappropriate for less experienced pilots (300 jumps is probably a good guideline).

3. Speculation on the PD swoop team's 120s:

My Stiletto 120 was the first canopy to scare me a bit - it's sensitive enough to control input that my first swoops weren't always in a straight line. For average sized guys, it's also at the point where going smaller means less performance (apart from speed) with that class of canopy.

4. You gain _a lot_ by making hundreds (300?) of jumps under the same canopy.

[Skypup 0]

Quote

although canopy type definitely is. A long, slightly negative recovery arc is more forgiving of starting too high so you start higher, stay out of the corner, and don't get in the habit of digging yourself out and loosing distance. Elliptical canopies give you more time to play on post-planeout carving turns, although their increased control sensitivity makes them inappropriate for less experienced pilots (300 jumps is probably a good guideline).
.

I think that this thought come to the head of the decision I'm faced with.

I started flying a Spector 190 right after AFF for 15 jumps maybe?

Then I bought a sabre 170 @1:1 I have about 150 jumps on it now. I started strait in front riser dives pretty soon after that. I was letting up late for the first half of them. (Managed to dig out of all of those without coming in hard, just no distance.)

I then got some advice and found the sweet spot. I've been nailing that spot, and not using toggle input for a while now. I've been getting pretty bored with this canopy on that type of approach. It's just soo slow. I just started 90's in the last 20 jumps or so and I'm still bringing those down so I spend less time on both risers after the turn. I just don't find that I lose that much altitude or gain that much speed in the turn.

While i know that I still have a long ways to go to incorporate these low turns into my landings, I wonder if I shouldn't downsize first before I get too used to this very quick recovery arc on a slow diving canopy.

I'm hoping to attend a canopy skills camp sometime soon. In the mean time please feel free to add to this list of pro's and cons:

Pros and Cons of downsizing now..

Pro don't get used to hookin it low on the sabre
Con don't have that very forgiving bail out flare
Pro feel very comfortable with the 170 and meet all billvons recommendations for skills to have before downsizing.
Con Have to get a new rig to fit a smaller canopy
Pro would likely make landing more fun and I could get rid of those stupid colors.
Con could end up planting a femur

T.S.S # 5
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To dream great dreams is itself an act of daring. -Eric Shipton & Bill Tilman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[PhreeZone 20]

Swap from the Sabre to the Sabre2.. night and day in playing under them.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[rhino 0]

1st 50 or so jumps were on

Falcon220
Falcon210
Falcon190
Spectre170
Sabre170
Sabre 150

Then 100+ jumps on a Triathlon150

10 on a Diablo120
50 on a Diablo110
10 on a Crossfire 103
2 on a Xaos 98
150+ on Crossfire2, 97..

A few in between those jumps on various canopies. Fx, Omega, Spectra, Batwing and others..

I should hit 400 jumps in the next couple of weeks almost half being on the crossfire2, 97, 1.95 wing loading, last year it was closer to 1.85, put on 10lbs over the winter at the gym. AT LEAST 100+ of my jumps have been hop-n-pops from 13k or higher. I don't have a ton of jumps, most of my focus is on flying the canopy.

Rhino

[BETO74 0]

Canopy progression:
220 Sabre
190 Sabre
170 Spectre
169 Safire
And now 159 crossfire that I try this past Saturday is incredible the difference from the Safire the wind load is 1:3 I can belive the glide of this canopy!!!

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[Tonto 1]

1.

50 jumps on C9/T-10 Round canopies
30 on a 240 Viking superlite
100 on a Swift 177
500+ on a 220 Cruiselite 7 cell
100 on a PD 190
75 on a Reflex 145
150 0n a Perigrine 150 (Excalibur copy)
1500+ on Jonathan 120's
100+ on Stilleto 107

(Thrown in on top)

700 on 360 - 421 Tandems
650 + on AR-7, Matrix and Rubis Rotation CReW rigs

2.

Learn the technique, then go down.

The people in the PD demo team are not average people. You cannot base your progression on theirs. If you can, you'll soon be one of them, or in a chair, or dead.

t

It's the year of the Pig.