Michele 1 #1 May 7, 2003 Curious as to instructors' thoughts and everyone's experience on braked/flat turns. I actually refer to what I do as a pivot turn, and don't know what it is really called....what I do is bring both brakes to between jaw and shoulder level, wait for the canopy to slow down, and then bring one toggle down about chest level. The canopy generally stays quiet and controlled, and it feels like I pivot rather than turn. I also use a gauge (a bush, a building) to determine sideways movement, but I'm not so good at that yet. In my turn, I have noted that for a full 180 degrees, keeping the canopy level with the horizon, I lose between 50-75 feet. For a 90 degree turn, less than that amount although it's hard to tell with my alti (it's not digital). And I could be wrong - I may be losing more than that, but I don't think so... The return to full flight is not a "recovery arc" feeling, but rather just a building of speed forward; it's not "fast", there's no "rushing", and I am not penduluming out from under/behind the canopy, so I think it's fairly stable and controlled. If this is not good, how can I do it better? What is the general amount of alti one should lose during a 180? I've done a 90 degree onto final as low as 200 feet, and made it to where I wanted to land (edge of the grass at Perris, starting from the canal ridge)...but haven't tried a 180 that close. (And don't plan to, but there are times things happen which are not planned....and one needs to be prepared for it...) Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajun 0 #2 May 7, 2003 This is just me, but I have NO idea what your question is If you are looking for approval. This is what I call a flat turn. very very very very good skill to have when your pilot spots like ours does and you land off maybe 1 out of 30ish jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #3 May 7, 2003 Quote This is just me, but I have NO idea what your question is [Wink] LOL....o.k., let me try it this way: How much altitude should one expect to lose in a really good flat/braked/"pivot" turn? Quote If you are looking for approval. This is what I call a flat turn. Nope, not looking for approval. Just checking to see if it needs more work according to people who know what they're doing... It is an important skill to have, and I started working on them on jump 14...but not sure if it's good yet. It's not like landing, where the data is immediate and objective - you crash, you didn't do well...Tiptoes? Good deal...That better? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cheneyneel 0 #4 May 7, 2003 One thing that I have incorporated lately with flat turns like you are talking of is harnes movement with the use of rear risers.. I seem to get flatter turns using a crabing type of motion.. Right now I have a airlocked canopy so I dont know how much of a difference that is making (if at all) because of stall speed.. But I really do my flat turns in a similar fashion as you are explaing.. and I have had a positive outcome when very consistant with it... I think that the most important thing is to know how your canopy will react.. and only do those things. I have found that some of the most info I get with canopies on small precise movements always comes from CRW dogs.. I suggest sitting down with one and talking with them.. I think they soend more time under canopies than anyone else..(other than canopy teams)which would also be good advisors.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajun 0 #5 May 7, 2003 I see, I would say that 50-75ft is very good, but I think it also depends on the parachute, and wingloading too. Someone with more experience is going to have to chime in here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #6 May 7, 2003 Quote How much altitude should one expect to lose in a really good flat/braked/"pivot" turn? It depends on a number of things; wingloading, depth of application, skill in performance . . . I assume that you canopy, like most, is trimmed for full flight at a speed faster quite a bit faster than it's minimum sink speed. Minimum sink speed is the speed at which your canopy will decend the absolute slowest. As a rough estimate, let's call it 1.2 times the stall speed. So, maybe a Mythical-190 has a stall speed of 10 mph, a minimum sink speed of 12 mph, best glide speed of 20 mph and a full flight speed of 25 mph. This Mythical-190 might have a full flight sink rate of 1,300 feet per minute, a best glide sink rate of 1,000 feet per minute and a minimum sink rate of say 700 feet per minute. The thing you're trying to do in a flat turn is to change heading the most you can while losing the least amount of altitude. So, what it really comes down to is how quickly you can make that canopy change direction at a slow decent rate AND continue to fly the canopy. Remember I said that the Mythical-190 has a minimum sink speed of about 1.2 times the stall speed -- try to turn much slower than that, and you might stall the canopy. So, you definately don't want to go as far into brakes as you would for a static stall. The safest way to do these braked turns is actually the opposite of how you've described them. Go down to minimum sink speed and slowly let one toggle UP a bit. Michele, what you -might- try to do -- way up high so you can recover if something wacky happens -- is to try to do the turn a in even deeper brakes -- maybe chest strap or even a bit lower. Experiment until you find what you and your canopy will do. Numbers from anybody else doesn't really matter. For instance, on my canopy, bringing the toggles down to the shoulders, is only about best glide. Minimum sink is somewhere around the laterals. I'm almost certain your canopy is different, so you need to experiment to find out.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #7 May 7, 2003 How about flare turn? I mean what if you started flared turn (carved swoop) and when you would lost speed continue with flat turn. it sounds possible but i never tried it? any thoughts..."George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #8 May 7, 2003 Yeah...if you turn while you're flaring wouldn't you not lose any altitude? I mean, if people do it during a surf over the ground, they're obviously not getting lower. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crapflinger2000 1 #9 May 7, 2003 I would say that if you lose any more than 5 feet of altitude, you should quit the sport. Seriously, as with all of these "how much, how high, when should I" type questions... it really all just depends on the individual, the gear, the conditions, etc... I think if you keep practicing this style of turn enough, you will eventually get it optimized to fit your weight, gear, loading, needs, etc.... __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
