How much height does your canopy lose on 180 degree frontriser turs?

[HCnorway 0]

Sorry, above message was intended to comment on Treejumps reply and not yours jdhill.

[Treejumps 0]

Thanks Chucky. With all due respect, I'm pretty sure that you don't speak for anyone but yourself, least of all those who are winning on the tour that you relish referring to. As I recall you recently told everyone on this forum that "trips ( triple risers) still go the furthest". Are these folks that you claim to represent also taking your advice on risers? I don't see anyone winning PST using trips, and about the same number staring at altis while lining up their turns. That however is merely an observation. I would be very interested in an actual, factual survey of the top 20 PST swoopers' methodologies. WIth this information we could all know what the pros really do rather than speculate.

Keep up the good work,

[rigging65 0]

Ummm...no...I'm not over estimating my carving approaches. I've been doing them for several years under Stilettos, then Crossfires...from right at about 500 ft.

When I switched to the Xaos, I nearly put myself into the dirt because I only added about 100 feet to my start point.

Snap turns certainly don't require nearly as much, but my carving approach is slow and broad...it takes time and burns altitude...the trade of is A LOT more speed.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[HCnorway 0]

Treejumps: What are your own experience on 180 degree carvs? Not others - but yours. I was in my question interested in peoples own experience and NOT what they mean others do. Thanks.

[Treejumps 0]

I'm not sure since I don't use an alti. I would say that a front riser 180 would be around 500'. It could be done between 300' and 600' depending on the agressiveness of the turn.

[AggieDave 6]

You know, Chuck is a PD sponsered pilot who has proven himself as a not only a world class instructor, but a world class canopy pilot also.

I would tend to believe him.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[HCnorway 0]

What sort of canopy do you use then Treejumps?

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Quote

Thanks Chucky. With all due respect, I'm pretty sure that you don't speak for anyone but yourself, least of all those who are winning on the tour that you relish referring to. As I recall you recently told everyone on this forum that "trips ( triple risers) still go the furthest". Are these folks that you claim to represent also taking your advice on risers? I don't see anyone winning PST using trips, and about the same number staring at altis while lining up their turns.

Nice, but if you look at the dates on those posts are gleaning "my" knowledge from you will find that this, while still relevant to recreational swoopers, is dated information. I switched back to standard risers quite a while ago; when I started rear-risering my landings. Things change.....period. To "keep up with the Joneses" you have to adapt or get left in the dust. I have done that, as have most everybody that competes. Does this mean that I put out bad poop two years ago? I don't think so. I still believe that trips have benefits and as a matter of fact, I still have them on one of my rigs just for shits and grins and comparison sake.

Now, as to the altimeter issue, I urge you to ask any of the Flight One PD pilots what their turn-in altitude is. I did, as I saw that they were making their turns a bit lower than I was. Their answer: "700 feet". As they are very goal-oriented pilots, you can bet your ass that they keep track of the "five W's" . Still, dig on me all you want to, my brother. I have been in the game a very long time, but am not too old to learn from better pilots. That is what keeps me going, pure and simple. When it gets boring, or you start sucking, then it's time to learn a new trick. I can assure you that I don't suck, nor do I rest on my laurels or worry about the past. Swooping is now science. This science is incredibly evident when you compare video of today from that of two, even one year ago. There are FAR fewer people slamming into the water, the beach, or whatever else nowadays. This is because we learn from the better pilots and our own mistakes.

Peace,

Chuck

[GroundZero 0]

Mark,

You're way over simplifing the entire process.

To say that most crossbraced pilots turn at 4-500' is sending the wrong message to younger pilots.

I'm a conservative guy.... and my landing approach begins at well over 1000'. At that altitude I may do simply a 90 degree turn... slowly descending the entire time...

Careful everyone... There is not an altitude that is perfect, it always depends on the severity/intensity of the turn.


There is no magic number and there is, not yet, the perfect approach...

Kinda like Golf, what's perfect? When someone plays the "perfect game" there is no reason to continue further.

Chris

And I have yet to hit 18 hole in ones...

[AggieDave 6]

Good post! That needed to be said!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[rhino 0]

X-fire2, 97 loaded at 1.9+.

In Michigan I start my 180 at 550 feet.

Here in Perris 1200 feet higher I start it at 650 feet. Speed is a little higher, dive is a little longer, canopy response time because of the thinner, humid, warmer air is slightly slower but still fun as hell..

Rhino

[Treejumps 0]

a VX a 2.4

[Treejumps 0]

The post I was referring to was less than a month ago.

[Treejumps 0]

I agree. There is no majic height. I don't know why folks get so defensive because I (notice that I said I, and not all the people I hang out with) have noticed that people tend to overstate their turn heights. Maybe I'm worng, but I still think that these numbers are inflated.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Check your PM's, watch your attitude, and listen to what those people who post here (four of us on tour have already answered) have told you. None of us have any reason to blow smoke up anyone's ass. That being said, think what you will, but don't dare call any of us liars.


Chuck Blue
D-12501

[imdskydiver 0]

I would think that wing loading have a bearing on what altitude you start your front riser turn .

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Wingloading absolutely does have an effect on what altitude you need to start your turn.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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In general I think that most people highly over estimate/ overstate their turn execution height. Most turns happen in the 400' to 500' range for X-brace canopies. I'm not saying that its a pride or ego thing, just that watching (and doing) these turns regularly it becomes quite clear that no one is doing a 180 from 700'. I wass just thinking about this from the top of a 800' tower on Tues. evening. Even a 270 from 700' would leave you hanging with all but the most gentle carving 270' using only the harness. I also do not use a altimeter, as most swoopers do not, but a more realistic number for non x-brace canopies is proabably 200', and X-brace is probably 400'. As always, your actual useage may vary, and planets coming up at you may appear larger than actual size.

400 feet for a cross braced canopy? I disagree. Having flown several cross braced canopys, I have never hooked one below 500 feet. I regularly hook from 1000+ feet, and not a very slow hardly swung out turn either. I snatch it around 180 degrees and dive.

Two notes:

1) I sacrifice distance for speed with at my wingloading, except in higher winds, when I go farther than lighter-loaded canopys.

2) I fly a VX-60 at 3.1:1, landing at 5400 ft MSL.

Hook

[JeffGordon 0]

Ok, not trying to change the subject, but why did you do away with trips when you started rear risering your landings? Just asking because I have trips, and I would like to start useing my rears for landing.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

That's a good question with a very simple answer:
When you transition from rears to toggles, if you do at all, then you run into the problem with trips. You see, when you release your rears on standard risers, the toggles automatically take up the slack through your guide rings and you actually only barely move your hands. The ring does the work for you. On trips, when you let go of the risers there is a ton of slack whick you must reel in or face the consequences of not having taut control lines. Bottom line here is that the "bump" it produces is counterproductive to your smoothness and especially swoop distance. Also, that extra piece of material that your guide rings are attached to sometimes gets in the way when you transition from fronts to rears. It's just a mess of webbing that you don't need to deal with. I found out that it was entirely possible to "think" I had the rears, when in fact I only had the trip. One burned up leg gripper later, I realized that the added benefit of the flatter tail was not worth the added hassle during transition from fronts to rears and the "bump" you get on transition from rears to toggles. It's much easier to get an easier, smoother, rear-riser swoop on "conventional" risers.

Chuck

[listo 0]

This subject has a wide variance of answers. First of all a 180 is no different than a 270 in respect to altitude when both are flown correctly.

Personally I fly a Velocity 111 loaded @ 2.1-1. My hooks range from 450-850. It depends on how much the wind is blowing. In lighter winds I tend to make my turn a little higher and vice versa for higher winds. My rate of turn is dictated by how high I am. If I am lower, then I have to increase my turn rate, but at the same time analyzing my altitude vs. my canopy attitude in case I have to "bail".

Just a thought... maybe you could do a paper on how many people that are swooping are actually flying their hook turns or just snatching them and then dealing with what they just got themselves into.

Blue Skies,
Sam

EXTREME EVOLUTION SCHOOL of CANOPY FLIGHT

[Tonto 1]

Here we go about altitude and tempreture again...

Higher and hotter will lose you more altitude. The speed you do the turn will say a lot too. 2000ft to 150 foot, I would guess.

I'm jumping a Stilleto 107 loaded to 1.7 and TOGGLE turning. I lose around 400 ft.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[NeedToJump 0]

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I'm jumping a Stilleto 107 loaded to 1.7 and TOGGLE turning.

I'm not saying you should or shouldn't turn this way, but I am just curious as to why you choose to do it this way as opposed to risers and/or shifting your weight in your harness.

Edited to fix typos

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[Tonto 1]

Because I have over 3300 swoops this way, and I'm good for 200 ft + most warm days. I've been doing this aproach and landing for over 15 years, it's really consistant, I've had no injuries and I've visited EVERY one of my friends of the same generation in hospital after they lost a toggle/ hit turbulence and fucked themselves up learning or doing riser turns. I've see newbies burying themselves the same way since word went out that what I do is dangerous.
I do use harness input during and after my toggle turn.

Rule 1 is simple. Don't get caught in the corner.

I have no doubt that the best way to swoop is using the risers, but I know some canopies don't like risers, and no canopy performs well in turbulence on front riser/s, and I've seen people die with and without experience, on toggle turns, and on riser turns.

Rule 2 is simple. Don't fuck up.

I'm an old dog, and I'm happy with my trick.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[AggieDave 6]

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I know some canopies don't like risers,

Are you saying your view is that Stilettos don't like front riser turns?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."