garyharbird 0 #1 June 6, 2003 I have a velocity 84 loaded @ 2.3 This was first brought up by a friend and i was wanting some advise. A cypres fires at 78mph and a pro ditter goes of at 70mph, My friend Ian told me that he could set his ditter off under canopy and he jumps a 96 loaded at 2.0. So i borrowed a friends pro ditter and jumped it, i was surpised how easierly i could set it off. So what i want to know is who jumps with a cypres and what canopy and wing loading are you flying? Because 8mph isn't much of a buffer, and hell i don't want 2 canopies out. Also does anyone know of any instances of cypres's fire because of small canopies decending to fast? Thanks Gary Harbird Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #2 June 6, 2003 Why not email Airtec and post their reply here? As you can imagine this is a constant worry for me under my Spectre @ 1.3 so I'd be interested to see what they say. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #3 June 6, 2003 I jump a CYPRES in two of my three rigs. I set my Dytter off on about half of my swoops under canopies as small as a CC-65 up to a Stiletto 107 with no misfires. I regularly jump a 75 and a 79 square foot Velocity at 2.34 and 2.3 respectively. I don't personally know of, or have even heard of anyone having a CYPRES misfire during a canopy dive. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #4 June 6, 2003 The thrid warning on the Pro-Track goes off at 29 m/s Vertical descent rate. 29 * 3.282 * 60 * 60 / 5280 = 64.89 mph vertical descent rate. (Someone check my math). 13.1 mph difference between third warning speed and Cypres speed. I have no problem getting the third warning to go off under a VX at 3.1:1. Which is why I put it on my ankle now. SSK couldn't tell me if the cypres would fire or not, at that wingloading. I have offered to test jump one (in a fanny pack) but haven't recieved a reply yet. I wouldn't worry about 2.6:1 or less. I have 831 jumps at that wingloading, some with weights, making it a bit higher, without the Cypres firing. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #5 June 6, 2003 I have had the same concern. For that reason after I took mine out of my rig for pond swooping I sold it and never replaced it. There is no question in my mind I am going well over 78 MPH on my dive the only question I have is for how long must that speed be maintained in order to fire it. If I could get a cypress set to 98 I probably would buy it.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
breadhead 0 #6 June 6, 2003 A few years ago, I have emailed Airtec with your question. Here is their reply: Hi Mike, good questions! No Expert or Tandem CYPRES has ever activated in this scenario Airtec is acquiring data from, and testing main canopy loadings of 3+ to 1 without a problem As canopies keep getting faster, there could eventually be a situation where the vertical speeds of canopies exceed those of near freefall for more than a brief period of time in the CYPRES activation window, but we are not there yet :-) However, what you experienced is not uncommon You were NOT going 60 MPH (downward) - remember altimeters and AADs do not directly measure altitude or speed, they calculate it based on air pressure data and rates of change of this data that typically has an extreme level of noise (especially where we use them, in freefall and under canopy) fortunately, the CYPRES hardware and software is very sophisticated - what your altimeter experienced was a short transient peak of air pressure variation that it did not deal know what to do with this occurs with all altimeters to some degree, both mechanical and electronic, and has a lot to due with their design, as well as their location and the turbulent air surrounding them I hope this helps, let me know if you have any other questions Blue Skies - Safe Skydives, Cliff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
garyharbird 0 #7 June 7, 2003 Thanks everyone The cypres's will be staying in then Gary Harbird Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #8 June 8, 2003 On my Xaos21 my Dytter screams on most hard carves or hooks. I'm loading at 1.9. I got rid of my Cypress and bought an ASTRA. I can turn it off after the canopy opens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #9 June 8, 2003 Very nice aspect of the Astra from FXC.... Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #10 June 8, 2003 what is the point though, if airtec says it never happens? I think they would warn swoopers of the potential danger if it was present, they seem to be a fairly upfront honest company...? --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #11 June 8, 2003 Quotewhat is the point though, if airtec says it never happens? I think they would warn swoopers of the potential danger if it was present, they seem to be a fairly upfront honest company...? Because never is a very tall order. I don't believe that Airtec warns jumpers about Cypres misfires, unfortunately there are dozens of documented cases where it has. When a swooper is in the middle of a high performance landing, absolutely last thing he needs is a surprise reserve deployment. The device that was designed to save his life could just as easily kill him. Some feel that it's safer to simply remove the Cypres from the equation. Some do this by switching to an Astra or another AAD that can be turned off, some simply remove the AAD completely. Those that do so have analyzed the risk and believe that it is acceptable. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #12 June 8, 2003 To add to what Jim said, a lot of the top guys have swoop rigs that are used for training and comps only. So, they are mostly doing hop n pops with these AAD-less rigs, ie not having an AAD is not that big a deal (mind your head on exit and look out for birds... ). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #13 June 8, 2003 Quote I don't believe that Airtec warns jumpers about Cypres misfires, unfortunately there are dozens of documented cases where it has. - Jim Are they only documented by Airtec ? How do you know there are dozens of them ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #14 June 9, 2003 QuoteAre they only documented by Airtec ? How do you know there are dozens of them ? By paying attention to what those who came before me have to say, they were there and I believe them. There have been at least two cases of the Cypres misfiring during the short time that I have been in the sport. Don't believe that it doesn't happen just because Airtec doesn't publish it. Please don't believe that your Cypres is infallable. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #15 June 9, 2003 Quote QuoteAre they only documented by Airtec ? How do you know there are dozens of them ? By paying attention to what those who came before me have to say, they were there and I believe them. There have been at least two cases of the Cypres misfiring during the short time that I have been in the sport. Don't believe that it doesn't happen just because Airtec doesn't publish it. Please don't believe that your Cypres is infallable. - Jim I also hear there has been misfires. I just havent seen any documentation of anykind. Its not that I wouldn´t belive they happen, its simply that I would be very intrested about hearing some details. Here is a thread I started about this matter some time ago. I dont know how you document accidents/incidents in US, but it seems you dont do it very much.. In Finland we make documents every time someone has a reserve ride or even just a sprained ankle.. I think this is really a good system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #16 June 9, 2003 [QUOTE]By paying attention to what those who came before me have to say, they were there and I believe them. There have been at least two cases of the Cypres misfiring during the short time that I have been in the sport. Don't believe that it doesn't happen just because Airtec doesn't publish it. Please don't believe that your Cypres is infallable. [/QUOTE] Youre going offtopic there, buddy. I wanted to know about documented cases of cypri misfires WHILE SWOOPING. The cypres is an electronic device, and as such will malfunction from time to time. However, in my opinion if you can set the cypres off while swooping at high speeds, thats not a malfunction, thats the swooper not knowing his own gear's capabilities/downfalls. So, where is a documented case of a cypres firing mid swoop because of speed? I honestly am interested in this.. --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyguy 0 #17 June 9, 2003 I had a thought. If you start your turn at 700 feet, which you would + or - to swoop a pond. The earliest you could gain the speed to fire it, if it actually DID happen, would be around 300 feet. If it fired then, it would be another second to get the reserve out of the container, then out of the bag, then begin to inflante. This is all low speed, for a reserve deployment. So in all. I really doubt it would have time to inlfate enough to case a major catastrophy anway. A downplane takes a little bit to develope. So. Make up your own mind, but I don't think twice about a Cypress in my swoop rig, accept I am glad it is there. ---------------------------- bzzzz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #18 June 9, 2003 QuoteYoure going offtopic there, buddy. I don't think so. Let's set the way back machine and see how things come to be. Kirils said this: QuoteOn my Xaos21 my Dytter screams on most hard carves or hooks. I'm loading at 1.9. I got rid of my Cypress and bought an ASTRA. I can turn it off after the canopy opens. You responded with this: Quotewhat is the point though, if airtec says it never happens? I think they would warn swoopers of the potential danger if it was present, they seem to be a fairly upfront honest company...? Finally, I responded to your response with this: QuoteBecause never is a very tall order. I don't believe that Airtec warns jumpers about Cypres misfires, unfortunately there are dozens of documented cases where it has. When a swooper is in the middle of a high performance landing, absolutely last thing he needs is a surprise reserve deployment. The device that was designed to save his life could just as easily kill him. Some feel that it's safer to simply remove the Cypres from the equation. Some do this by switching to an Astra or another AAD that can be turned off, some simply remove the AAD completely. Those that do so have analyzed the risk and believe that it is acceptable. My response was not out of line or off the topic of this thread, rather, it was a direct response to your question of why Kirils chose to remove his Cypres and replace it with the Astra. Now, to answer the question about documented cases of Cypres misfires WHILE SWOOPING, I don't know of any. Nor do I know of any legitimate Cypres fires that occured during a swoop. Swooping as we know it today is in its infancy, as the envelope is pushed we can't be sure how the Cypres will react. Some people who are truely pushing the limits are concerned enough by this to remove their Cypres, deal with it. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #19 June 9, 2003 Keep the Cypres in there... In the earliest days, we had Charlie Mullins jumping his 58 with a Cypres in a bag on his waist... he was terrified of jumping one on that (then smallest) canopy... he couldn't make it fire... it became a vendetta... he wanted to make it fire but couldn't... he tried and tried with no luck... Jump with a CYPRES, know its limitations... but don't worry about the canopy... we have yet to build one that can "fool" the CYPRES. Now if you're jumping the 21 sq.ft... that may be a different story... Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #20 June 9, 2003 chris what was charlie loading that 58 at? i'm sure it was high, but i was just wondering. and isn't micheal stevens jumping a 58 xaos 21 now? he's a little guy, but i'm sure his wing loading is still up there a bit. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #21 June 9, 2003 don't know exactly what his loading was... something in the 3.0 plus i believe.... but in the 750' range, he'd drive that thing at the ground as hard as he could... with no luck firing the CYpres in his fanny bag... seems to me, it kinda pissed him off that he couldn't fire it... Mikeal has a 53 and yes he's lighter... Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #22 June 9, 2003 QuoteMikeal has a 53 and yes he's lighter... what ever, 58 or 53, still damn small, and not too many people jumpin that size later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #23 June 9, 2003 Derek has emailed airtec several times about letting him test jump one up here in CO with a wingloading of 3.1:1 on a VX60. He has yet to get a responce. Here his average swoop starts at 1000ft, he can easily start higher if he wants. In Houston he was clocked with a lazer at 90 mph in his dive and that was when he still had less than 20 jumps on the canopy. The odds are he can make it fire, but since airtec won't respond he is waiting for the old ones to become pumpkins and then test one.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #24 June 9, 2003 I might have a pumpkin laying around. Have Derek call me. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #25 June 9, 2003 QuoteI had a thought. If you start your turn at 700 feet, which you would + or - to swoop a pond. The earliest you could gain the speed to fire it, if it actually DID happen, would be around 300 feet. If it fired then, it would be another second to get the reserve out of the container, then out of the bag, then begin to inflante. This is all low speed, for a reserve deployment. I believe the cypres manual says that it will not fire below 400 feet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
