freeflir29 0 #1 July 7, 2003 Whats really the difference? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base698 20 #2 July 7, 2003 One has 27 cells and the other has 21... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #3 July 7, 2003 Ask diablopilot.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #4 July 7, 2003 ask chris from precision... "groundzero" -drew Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #5 July 8, 2003 Clay, See us at Rantoul... we'll have most sizes of both. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #6 July 8, 2003 QuoteSee us at Rantoul... we'll have most sizes of both. Scary. Anyhow, how about for people who aren't going to Rantoul, but are just curious about the differences between the 21 and the 27 cell canopies. What's the difference? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #7 July 8, 2003 QuoteScary. Anyhow, how about for people who aren't going to Rantoul, but are just curious about the differences between the 21 and the 27 cell canopies. What's the difference? hehehehe (or in spanish... jajajajaja) While the crossbraced canopies once attracted only the "elite" canopy pilots, today these canopies can be flown by experienced pilots with good judgement as everyday kit. We've tamed openings, and a person with good skills can enjoy these for everyday jumps. Judgement is the most important arrow in any pilots quiver. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #8 July 8, 2003 Chris, You've been asked twice now, a simple question, what's the difference between the 21 and the 27 cell Xaos. Both times you've avoided answering the questionl; one time you suggested that Clay come on out to the WFFC and demo them, the second time you suggested that it's safe for a heads up canopy pilot to go ahead and jump one. You're leaving me wondering Chris, do you even know the difference? If you do, why won't you tell us? Why the evasive answers? I really am looking forward to hearing the differences as explained by the resident Xaos expert. Thanks, Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #9 July 8, 2003 QuoteYou've been asked twice now, a simple question, what's the difference between the 21 and the 27 cell Xaos. Well the simple answer to the simple question would be that one is a 7 cell and the other is a 9 cell design. I am pretty sure Chris knows that. What other "simple" answers are you looking for Jim? Differences in Airfoil distortion (spanwise, bulge, ect.) between the two different canopies? Differences in pack volume? Differences in price? Opening characteristics? Turn rate? Riser pressure? (front or rear?) Toggle pressure? Dive Rate? What exactly is the "simple question" Jim Josh That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #10 July 8, 2003 QuoteWell the simple answer to the simple question would be that one is a 7 cell and the other is a 9 cell design. I am pretty sure Chris knows that. Yeah, I'm pretty sure he knows that too, and probably a lot more. What I'd like is for Chris to share some of that information. Fair enough? QuoteDifferences in Airfoil distortion (spanwise, bulge, ect.) between the two different canopies? Differences in pack volume? Differences in price? Opening characteristics? Turn rate? Riser pressure? (front or rear?) Toggle pressure? Dive Rate? What exactly is the "simple question" Jim You've provided a good start right there. I would have been happy with the general flight differences between the two, but now that you've provided the groundwork for additional questions, yes, I'd like answers to those as well. I am sure that I'm not the only one who would like to know. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mags 0 #11 July 8, 2003 Go to the precision website and you can answer these questions for yourself. My experience is that the 21 cell opens a little better, has lighter front riser pressure, and is a more forgiving canopy. In contrast, the 27 has heavier front riser pressure, opens not so well as its little brother, and is significantly less forgiving to fly... At the end of the day, if you are an excellent canopy pilot, these types of canopies basically come down to what your personal preference is...... Lots claim the 27 cells are the king daddy's of them all, but remember the longest swoop was made under a 21 cell (Velocity) I would imagine Chris has lots to do, so going to the website would be your best bet. Christian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #12 July 14, 2003 QuoteI would imagine Chris has lots to do, so going to the website would be your best bet. Chris posts here regularly enough, I'm sure he can take a few minutes to explain the differences between the 21 and the 27. Hopefully we'll get an answer a bit more detailed than "6 cells". I really am curious, since I'm not likely to jump one of these canopies in the next few years I can't experience it, but I think I can probably understand it if it's explained to me. Hopefully, while he's here, Chris can take a few minutes to answer a question about this quote: QuoteWhile the crossbraced canopies once attracted only the "elite" canopy pilots, today these canopies can be flown by experienced pilots with good judgement as everyday kit. We've tamed openings, and a person with good skills can enjoy these for everyday jumps. What is an experienced pilot? 300 jumps? 500 jumps? Is it 500 jumps on an already equally, or similarly loaded elliptical? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Xaosrules 0 #13 July 15, 2003 I jump both canopies and they are different. The Xaos-21 is my favorite. It opens like a dream, handling are easy og it does not stall to easy. Frontriser pressure is high, but not crazy. The canopy is really nice to handle on rearrisers to. Lots og speed and lots of flare. The Xaos-27 is a differernt animal. Its the most responsive canopy i have ever jumped. The speed is higher then the Xaos-21 but its also more ground hungry. The openings er a little harderd then the Xaos-21 and its a very seeking canopy. I have lot more off heading openings on my Xaos-27 then on my Xaos-21. Line twists are not a problem. The Xaos-27 is easy to stear with harness moves and the stall speed is higher then the Xaos-21. The flare is amazing and it keeps going longer then the Xaos-21 and it will stop you more. I prefeer the Xaos-21 because its easyier to handle. I jumped the Xaos-21 for the PST Advanced comp. in the Scandinavian Challenge. I will jumped the Xaos-27 more and use it i the World Cup (if i get the hand of it). The Xaos-27 still surprises me and just need to jump it more. If you want a straight answers from Chris, just call him og send him a e-mail. If its possible you should demo both. Start with the Xaos-21 and move on to the Xaos-27. Safe swoops! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #14 July 16, 2003 QuoteYou're leaving me wondering Chris, do you even know the difference? If you do, why won't you tell us? Because... I'm on vacation and only took a few moments away from my lovely wife and beautiful 7 month old Haley... (i.e. shut up and jump you little whiney-ass! Get off the internet and experience skydiving in real time. Only kidding...) Ok... let's see if I can give you some of the differences between the 21 and 27 Xaos canopies... let me first cut and paste from the previous posts... QuoteDifferences in pack volume? Differences in price? Opening characteristics? Turn rate? Riser pressure? (front or rear?) Toggle pressure? Dive Rate? Differences in pack volume? Add about ~15-20% larger for the 27... (this is from experience... I'm at home and don't have specific volume numbers here.) There are more pieces sewn together in the cross braced canopies. Take a seven cell standard canopy, for example a Raven reserve, there are 32 separate pieces of fabric. The Xaos 27 consists of 65 parts being joined (the 21 has 51 pieces). This translates into more fabric (more pack volume) than a comparable sized Xaos 21. Both canopies have virtually the same planform. The 27 uses more pieces to stiffen the airfoil, (more ribs, surfaces and crossbraces). Differences in price? The Xaos 21 has a retail price of $2198.00. The Xaos 27 retail price is $2498.00. These prices are for standard sizes. Any other size is available, (yes we have built a 69.5 square foot canopy on request... notice the warning label on that canopy lists a maximum weight of 180 lbs, 10ozs.) Custom sizing costs you an extra $20. Custom colors are no extra charge. Stainless grommets and links are optional...$40 more. I discourage the stainless. The grommets are heavier and cause the canopy to open quicker. (Yes, Dave Brownell was correct.) Our Wrap-It Links (soft links) are included with all canopies. Opening characteristics? The Xaos canopies are the best opening crossbraced canopies available, period. I know because I've jumped them all. I'm getting older and openings are VERY important to me. This was the reason we started the Xaos project. The day the VX was released was the very same day the Xaos Project began. The VX release happened in our backyard at the Precision plant. We objected, but our newly hired marketing arm won out. (I have 1200+ Xaos21 jumps, 500+ Xaos27 jumps, 600+ FX jumps, 200+ VX jumps and, yes, 400+ Velocity jumps.) My favorite? Look at the numbers above. I jump the Xaos 21 in my primary rig (attached to my Skyflyer!). No other crossbraced canopy opens as comfortably as the Xaos 21. Consistently. Next best is the Xaos27. The greater number of openings, combined with smaller chambers, tend to fill a bit quicker and allow the canopy to hunt a bit more on opening. That said, the Xaos27 is making many camera flyers very happy everyday... Ask them! Turn rate? Geez... no idea, honestly. I personally don't care how fast it turns. Not really a consideration for what these canopies are designed to do. I'm not sure if one turns faster than another. I typically jump a slightly smaller 27, so at slightly higher loading it seems to turn faster. But I'm not sure about the difference at the same loading. Sorry. Last time I thought of "turn rate" was reading an ad for the Para-Commander stating a 360 degree turn in 2.5 seconds or something like that. I think if you want to do quick spirals, a regular construction higher aspect ratio canopy will turn faster. (Try a Nitron or Stiletto if that's your cup of tea.) But that's not really what these canopies are about. Riser pressure? (front or rear?) Now there's an important consideration! These are Pilot's canopies and it is very important to talk about the control inputs and forces. The Xaos21 is designed to be very easy to fly well (even for a canopy novice like myself!). We have shifted the center of loading back a bit on this canopy to specifically lighten the front riser pressure. The result is a canopy that is easier to drive in the riser dive. At my age, eyesight is waning, reaction time is slower, etc. This canopy is very smoothly transitioned from full flight to deep dive. This way, a person can start a dive very high, allowing more time to make adjustments and continue to adjust all the way to the recovery and pull out. This was the critical adjustment made to crossbraced canopies. The Xaos21 is the easiest flying crossbraced canopy. Welcome crossbrace to mainstream skydiving! Rear riser pressures on the 21 are still very light... i.e. very easy canopy to rear riser land. The 27... This canopy is the competitors' canopy (but why does everyday Joe-Skydiver love it so much?!) Time out... gotta run. Time to entertain the Mrs... hope you understand! Stay tuned for part two! Chris Precision Aerodynamics chris@precisionNOSPAM.net 423-949-4688 (when I'm back from vacation, before then anyone else will be more than happy to help!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
