skynole 0 #1 July 30, 2003 This question is for X-braced pilots or equivalent knowledge of X-braced canopies. I've got about 700 jumps, 400 of those on a Stiletto 135 @1.5ish. I'm getting pretty efficient on it...of course I could probably do another 1000 jumps on it and still not master it fully. But I would like to start flying and learning X-braced canopies but I don't want to downsize too much. If I were to get a X-brace, it would probably be a 120...which brings me to my question: I would be loading it at around 1.7, which is not an optimal wing-loading for X-braced from what I understand. 2 or more is preferred. Should I not bother pursuing X-brace flight until I am ready for 2+ wingloading or can I still get a good idea of X-brace flight with that "light" of a wingloading? Thanks in advance for any input. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ccowden 0 #2 July 30, 2003 Yes- for optimal performance you need to load a xbraced quite high. But you can certainly introduce yourself to the world of xbraced canopies at a much lighter loading and learn to fly them. I load my Velocity at about 1.8 and performs very well and is quite different than flying a non xbraced. But it isnt out of control or edgy at all. I wouldn't start flying xbraced at a loading of 2+. Start at about what you are thinking and work from there. Although you may want to try something in the 111 range for your size to start. Contact a manufacturer about a demo and see what you think before you buy. Kolla at PD will help you get set up for sure if you want to try a Velocity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #3 July 30, 2003 DISCLAIMER ========= I have no idea of your skills so I'm going to answer this based on the assumption that you are ready for something smaller. ========= Given the cost of X-braces I'd suggest buying something like a CF2 120 (I believe they are quite a bit cheaper) because I don't think the performance will be that much more noticable (if any) on a x-braced 120 (at the wingloading you mentioned) and I doubt it would be worth the additional expense. Also, a x-braced "feels" larger than a non x-braced of the same size (I went from a 120 to a 96 and borrow my friends 84 from time to time). I think I'd have to fire out the standard answer "Demo both" and see which feels better for you. If you like the x-braced 120 more than the CF2 120 then cool - it's all about what you want from the canopy so buy what fits your needs and skill level. Good luck, be safe, and demo as many as you can. Remember the dive arc of the CF2 and x-braced canopies is significantly longer (IMHO) than the stilletto. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #4 July 30, 2003 IMO you're not really getting your money's worth out of a Cross-braced canopy if you don't load it up. Wait till you're ready to go over 2.0, then spend the $$$ and live large. Until then, keep honing your skills. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #5 July 31, 2003 price? what's money anyway... QuoteGiven the cost of X-braces I'd suggest buying something like a CF2 120 Geez, the Crossfire 2 retails for $2150 vs the Xaos21 for $2195... By all means jump into a crossbraced canopy, but demo first. If you're jumping a conventional built canopy, you can typically downsize 2 sizes... There is that much more lift... The canopies fly very well at the mentioned 1.7 loading... I know a few girls that are jumping them at loadings in the 1.4 range and love them... these canopies can be flown at lighter loadings... I use a 104 for demos. Contact me directly and I can arrange a demo... try it, you'll like it! Chris Precision Aerodynamics chris@precisionNOSPAM.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #6 July 31, 2003 Quoteprice? what's money anyway... Then give me a xaos for nothing PM me for a shipping address Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ccowden 0 #7 July 31, 2003 Quoteprice? what's money anyway... QuoteGiven the cost of X-braces I'd suggest buying something like a CF2 120 Geez, the Crossfire 2 retails for $2150 vs the Xaos21 for $2195... The canopies fly very well at the mentioned 1.7 loading... I know a few girls that are jumping them at loadings in the 1.4 range and love them... these canopies can be flown at lighter loadings... Thank you- You DO NOT have to load a crossbraced canopy at 2.0 plus to get them to perform or enjoy the benefits of them. Yes you can load them much heavier than a non corssbraced, but it is not necessary. You won't win a swoop meet, but you can still swoop the heck out of 'em and learn to fly! I love my Velocity loaded at 1.8 to 1.9!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #8 August 1, 2003 A lot of the swoopers now a day's are getting bigger canopy's and wearing weights. It has been recomended to me to load a 21 cell not much more than 2.0, and a 27 cell not much more that 2.2. This will allow you to fly the canopy the farthest, and still be able to fly it at very slow airspeeds. Look at JC colclasure (spelling?), I have seen him fly a big canopy (114 FX?), and do much more amazing things with it, than those guys flying smaller higher loaded canopy's. I like the distance no the speed, but that's just me though. That's all I have to say about that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #9 August 1, 2003 JC was kicking ass on his VX-111 at the PST here in Oregon. There is definitely an upsize trend for all-purpose swooping amongst the pros. However, you do see a lot of these guys flying small canopies + weight for the speed rounds."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #10 August 1, 2003 There is an advantage to flying a bigger canopy and wearing weight to load it up to the match the loading they may have on a smaller canopy without the weight. A larger caopy has longer lines, and longer lines mean more pendulum effect, more momenteum through the turn, better conservation of energy.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #11 August 1, 2003 I went from a Crossfire 99 loaded from 1.85-1.9/1 to an 85 Xaos 21 loaded 2.3/1 and it was no big deal. Then I ran across a used Mirage with an 88'21 2.2/1 as a second rig. Also great.Talk to GroundZero (Chris) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #12 August 26, 2003 QuoteA lot of the swoopers now a day's are getting bigger canopy's and wearing weights. It has been recomended to me to load a 21 cell not much more than 2.0, and a 27 cell not much more that 2.2. This will allow you to fly the canopy the farthest, and still be able to fly it at very slow airspeeds. Look at JC colclasure (spelling?), I have seen him fly a big canopy (114 FX?), and do much more amazing things with it, than those guys flying smaller higher loaded canopy's. I like the distance no the speed, but that's just me though. That's all I have to say about that.... jc is also a big guy. i believe he told me he loaded at about 2.0-2.1 and adds weight or removes some weight for different compatitions.. he also said that he does not jump more than one canopy anymore... he just adds or removes weight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #13 August 26, 2003 To reiterate: you do not have to load a crossbraced canopy any higher than you currently jump, but they are designed to fly efficiently at wingloads where the performance of a "standard" canopy starts falling off. What you will run into, though, if you end up with a crossbraced canopy of the same or similar size as your current main is a LOT more pack volume. It will also cost cinsiderably more money. While crossbraces are fantastic "race" canopies, they, in mine and most people's opinion, do not fit the bill for everyone. They fly very fast, dive steep and long, and require every bit of your attention. The actual customer base for crossbraced canopies is infinitesimal compared to all other sales. Try .03 percent. Just know that crowded skies are a very dangerous plae to be flying a highly loaded crossbraced canopy. Dilligence is key to survival. That said, if you are truly ready for a "marquis" canopy, then don't let anyone tell you that you "must" load it over 2.2 to get the best performance. Tour averages are between 1.8 and 2.2. The larger, lighter loaded wings will definitely give you longer distance potential. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #14 August 26, 2003 QuoteGiven the cost of X-braces I'd suggest buying something like a CF2 120 Agreed... Of course it depends on what flight characteristics you like from your canopy? Snappy turns? Hard dives? Toggle and riser pressure? What do you like? Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skynole 0 #15 August 26, 2003 Thanks for everyone's input. Well in Rantoul I was able to demo a couple different X-braces and I ended up ordering a Velocity 103. After talking with several experienced pilots there and talking with the Marketing Rep for PD, who was handling the demos in Rantoul (he use to jump at my home DZ so he could give me a better evaluation on my skill than just what I say), I felt comfortable with my decision, even though I originally was thinking of going a bit bigger. This would put me at a wing loading right around 1.9-2.0. At this wing-loading I get a good combination of speed and distance which is what I am looking for. I felt comfortable flying this canopy in Rantoul...and if you've been to a WFFC you know it "ain't no walk in the park" when it comes to canopy traffic. Rhino - to answer your question, besides the fact that I feel ready to downsize and move on in my canopy progression, I am looking for a safer swooping canopy - let me explain... I have my Stiletto dialed-in pretty descently. I love this canopy, it's taught me A LOT don't get me wrong, but there is one thing I really don't like about it and that's how low you have to initiate your turn. Everytime I am in my turn, even though I know this canopy pretty well by now, I'm always thinking "man this just seems low" even though it's not, because of the Stiletto's shallow recovery arc. You can't adjust dive as nowhere near much as you can on X-brace. I know that with a X-brace though, I'm introducing a significant amount of new-found speed but IMHO I feel that this a better trade-off for MY comfort level under canopy. You can then make the argument that why don't I try a Crossfire or wait till PD releases their Kitana? Both those canopies have longer dive capabilities but I am still staying with ellipticals. To answer that - If I am going to spend the money on a new canopy I'm confident and comfortable enough with my abilities to go ahead and slowly and conservatively start learning X-brace canopies. To me half the fun of skydiving is canopy flight and I want to safely push my abilities in this discipline. Besides, a Crossfire really isn't all that much cheaper than a X-Brace and I'm sure the Kitana won't be either...plus I got 35% off my Velocity! Any and all constructive criticism is welcome. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #16 August 26, 2003 Enjoy the velo. My purchase of one was,by far, one of the best decisions I made regarding gear. She sure is a beauty. Just, as always, be careful...don't let her lull you into a false sense of security. Blue skies and safe swoops IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #17 August 27, 2003 QuoteBesides, a Crossfire really isn't all that much cheaper than a X-Brace and I'm sure the Kitana won't be either...plus I got 35% off my Velocity! Did you order it directly through PD? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skynole 0 #18 August 27, 2003 Yup. I got a 35% certificate and in order to use it you had to place your order directly through PD. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twnsnd 1 #19 August 27, 2003 Buy it. Get someone at your DZ to fill you in on the little differences in flight and enjoy. You will never look back. -We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
