Canopy control question...

[BobB 0]

(posted here per bbarnhouse's advice in Talk Back)

I enjoy the canopy ride as much as the freefall. Currently, I jump a Student Jav with a NAV 220.

I try and get aggressive with the canopy up high because it's so much fun (and I'm told it's a good learning experience). I love to bury a toggle and spiral down (yes, I hear some people yawning...but it's a blast for me). I also do a lot of flying in brakes, working on flat-turns, etc.

I have been pondering aggressiveness tonight and I'm curious if there's certain things that can get me into a "sugar"-load of trouble. Let's assume:

1) Good altitude;
2) Clear of others under canopy;
3) No riser-stuff -- just toggle inputs.

I have buried both toggles as far as I can (I'm a lanky genetic freak, so that's pretty far) and the canopy just chugs along without stalling. I'm concerned, for example, about being in a spiral, burying the other toggle for a moment and then letting the initial toggle fly.

I want to fly the hell out of that canopy just to see what it will do (again, UP HIGH)...but I've read about things like "induced line twists."

I know this is a question which I could easily ask my instructors at the DZ, but I'm home now and I thought I might as well ask...some of my instructors are on here now anyway.

Thanks for any thoughts. Just want to know if (again, given altitude and canopy clearance) I can wail-away on the toggles without worrying so much. I'd rather not end up falling into my canopy though (please don't flame hard if that's totally impossible).


Bob

Yes, I know it is snowing.
No, we are not putting the top up.

[dterrick 0]

Hi Bob!

By your profile I'm about 150 jumps ahead of you, and still flying a Raven 2 (220) 7 cell as a main... my BEER rig. From your words, I suspect we share a love of canopy sillyness and you and I will either ultimately wind up in CREW teams or on a swoop tour (...years from now).

I have only induced line twists under my Raven .. once ... and it was a hard spiral with a toggle snap to the opposite direction in 'choppy wind that did it. I'm not familliar with a Navigator but I suspect it is fairly docile and you;re loading it at 1:1 or thereabouts? If so, your BEST bet IS to seek out canopy drills for risers, etc. I have found my Raven flies better with rear riser input than it does under toggles (faster input, more radical spirals), and with dive loops on the fronts I have learned the rudiments of carving and (now) riser my approach pattern.

I won't offer encouragement to do silly stuff at your jump numbers (I had my only chop at #20 and remember my skill level of that time quite well because of it) but trust me - there are a LOT of things you can do - and should eventually do - under that canopy beyond snappy toggle turns.

Remember this if it helps... would you EVER just 'let go' of the steering wheel of your car in a high speed corner when it's time to straighten out? Of course not. "Wail away" but always go up with a plan you've discussed with a coach ...preferably someone known as for their canopy piloting skills. Have fun ...

-Dave

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[masher 1]

Quote

I have only induced line twists under my Raven .. once ... and it was a hard spiral with a toggle snap to the opposite direction in 'choppy wind that did it.

Be careful. I totally shutdown a PA270 doing that, and I was only 2k. The DZO swore that I would have to chop it (I didn't). I got reamed about that when I landed.

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[trigger 0]

I have buried both toggles as far as I can and the canopy just chugs along .***

"Some student canopies" not being able to stall is, i believe a saftey feature of the canopy.
Imagine a high flare,say 50ft,the canopy stalls,drops to the ground=1xinjured skydiver.
I,ve seen it happen,crushed vertibrae..OUCHH!!!!!
N.B. only referring to 1st time type student canopies here.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[trigger 0]

I can wail-away on the toggles without worrying so much.***
It's a good idea after say 2-3 360 spirals ,to return to full or braked glide and check your airspace again,its good to practice awareness under canopy.
Remember,whilst spirralling, your canopy will be drifting with the relative wind as well as decending v.rapidly..
Play with the risers both front and back,but be smooth not snappy..
Finally have a plan and land alone and practice those flat turns.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[AndyMan 7]

Student canopy are frequently "de-tuned" so that you can't stall the canopy, stalling at 30 feet can lead to injury.

If you're playing up high, try wrapping your hand around the steering lines to shorten them a bit. That should help you stall it.

Wrapping the lines will also make your turns sharper, which will make it more likely to spin up, so do this up high and learn about how it affects flight.

Make sure that when you land youi've unwrapped the lines, so they're at their normal length for your flare.

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[mr2mk1g 10]

its a good tip to find out the stall point of your canopy - while up HIGH, wrap the lines as andy suggests and hold the flair until the canopy starts to collaps. It'll scare the shit out of you but is a great learning process.

[BobB 0]

Thanks for the input guys

Yes, I know it is snowing.
No, we are not putting the top up.

[skymonkey 0]

If you really want to get to know your canopy, Read the d-g portions for students under canopy in the USPA SIM, some good exercises you can do to familiarize yourself. Get with an instructor first though and have him go over each exercise with you..

Miguel

[frenchyflyer 0]

Quote

If you're playing up high, try wrapping your hand around the steering lines to shorten them a bit. That should help you stall it.
Wrapping the lines will also make your turns sharper, which will make it more likely to spin up, so do this up high and learn about how it affects flight.
Make sure that when you land youi've unwrapped the lines, so they're at their normal length for your flare.

I really wouldn't advise anyone to wrap his/her hands around the line, especially to try and stall the canopy because if the stall is really successful you may collapse the canopy and it may not re-inflate correctly (at least not symetrically) and in case you need to let go of your main you probably don't want to have the steering lines wrapped a couple of times around your wrists.

I don't think it is really that helpful to play with more input than what the commands have to offer, what I mean is that you'll never wrap your hands around the steering lines for a landing so what's the point of knowing how the canopy behaves in that configuration?
I'd find more useful to try and stall the canopy with the rear risers (as landing with the rear is something that may happen to you someday) but there you also need to be careful to let go gently and symetrically of the rears when you have successfully stalled your canopy.
When you get another canopy with a normal command setup (not tampered with to avoid stalling), then you can play and see how it stalls with the commands; it's always important to know up high how your canopy reacts to all sorts of inputs...

Safe jumps,
G.

[ladyskydiver 0]

Quote

I really wouldn't advise anyone to wrap his/her hands around the line, especially to try and stall the canopy because if the stall is really successful you may collapse the canopy and it may not re-inflate correctly (at least not symetrically) and in case you need to let go of your main you probably don't want to have the steering lines wrapped a couple of times around your wrists.

I've taken a canopy control class with Scott Miller (PD). On one of the jumps you do, he does ask that you try and stall your canopy - not only with the risers but also with the lines. He does have you pulling higher to deal with any possibilities that may happen.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[Yoshi 0]

***what I mean is that you'll never wrap your hands around the steering lines for a landing so what's the point of knowing how the canopy behaves in that configuration?***

Actually I do take a wrap from time to time. not on my canopy, but when I jump lightly loaded student canopies they land much better with a little wrap. also when I was doing crew this past weekend (and not to be taboo or call upon any bad karma by using the term wrap in the same sentence:)...the canopy (cruiselite 245) seemed to land better with a wrap as well on the brake lines. on the student canopies we set the brakes a little deep to make it harder to stall them so when landing them, for more experienced pilots, you can get a little more out of it with a wrap.


ahh well just my 2 ones... I think its also just as easy to drop a toggle as it is to drop the wraps... just take the wraps around your hand just like the toggle not around your wrists.

-yoshi

_________________________________________
this space for rent.

[frenchyflyer 0]

A seasoned skydiver can make his/her own decision about this (and yes he will try up high what he plans to do near the ground).
My point is the following: Imagine someone on a student canopy (190 or 210 for instance) whose steering lines have been set so that he cannot stall it.
This person wraps it a couple of times around his hands and then tries to stall the canopy. He succeeds in stalling the canopy and stays that way a little bit too long so that the canopy collapses and then reinflates asymetrically (I had that once, my bad); the canopy will start to spin and I guess that at least one of the steering line will get tension, making it harder to release (at least harder than a command loop) if you want to cut away (ok, the above is not a reason to cut away but shit may happen and you may have a reason to cut away).

That's a lot of "if" but, still, I'd not advise students to wrap lines around their hands. Even though I'm ok with seasoned skydivers doing that e.g. when using bigger parachutes than what they're used to.

As a sidenote I expect that when doing CREW you did not have the lines around your hands (but only at landing time), am I wrong?

[Yoshi 0]

I do agree with you to a point. I dont think someone on thier first few jumps should take a wrap, but with more exsperienced jumpers I think it is fairly common (especially with some accuracy peeps) to use this method to get a little more flare out of the canopy. (taking in consideration of course it is a fairly large f111 canopy)

just my 2 ones like I said... I dont think its the best idea for a lowtimer

-yoshi

_________________________________________
this space for rent.

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

I don't think it is really that helpful to play with more input than what the commands have to offer, what I mean is that you'll never wrap your hands around the steering lines for a landing so what's the point of knowing how the canopy behaves in that configuration?

It's incredibly valuable to know what a canopy feels like as it approaches its stall point.

Many student canopies can not stall without a wrap or two, as the steering lines have been lengthened to make this impossible.

I would much rather a young skydiver experience their first stall under a large student canopy, then a smaller one they're jumping later on.

Done properly, recovering from a stable stall is no different then the parachute opening in the first place.

While it's true that we usually don't make a habbit of wrapping lines, we also do not make a habbit of jumping de-tuned canopies.

I would much rather somebody discover the stall point while loaded at .8, then when loaded at 1.2

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[quade 4]

I agree with most of what you said but this;

Quote

I would much rather somebody discover the stall point while loaded at .8, then when loaded at 1.2

should not be taken to mean that a different canopy loaded at 1.2:1 will feel the same or be traveling as slowly as the student canopy loaded at 0.8:1.

Even if the canopy was the same make and model one would expect the airspeed to be significantly higher for a stall at 1.2 vs 0.8 wing loadings.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

It is for that reason that we do a controllability check on every single skydive. Open, turn left ninety, turn right ninety, flare fully and find the stall point (if possible). People who get complacent and fail to do this are forgetting one of the basic first jump course principles.

It must be note that Bob is an ISP AFF "student" and has had plenty of input as to what needs to be done at which category. He has been jumping a Navigator 220, but has also made jumps, since AFF completion, under a Hornet 190. He is light (about 135 pounds) and is about to buy his first rig; one that contains a Sabre2 170.

Chuck
D-12501
"Bob's Instructor"