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jt40ronin

Cobalt 120 vs Stilleto 135

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I have the option of getting a cobalt 120, or a stilleto 135. I have heard from some people that the cobalt will fly and flare larger than its size. I am currently flying a sabre 150. I have spoken to several people on my dz, most say I would not have a problem flying either canopy. Of course there are some people who think I am pushing limits too much and I respect those opinions. In other peoples humble opinions, how does the cobalt 120 fly incomparison to a stilleto 135? Any and all comments/feedback is appreciated.

Blue Skys

jason

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i could say a lot of things here, but my main concern is considering buying either of these canopies without a demo (those types of canopies several jumps to feel them out)- they're both HP ellipticals which is a different beast than the sabre. I'm a conservative pilot. Just seems liek switching both planforms and size or TWO sizes at once is asking for trouble... i don't like people getting hurt. I don't know you, but just hope that at least a demo is considered before a purchase.... and lots of thought. also check out billvon's list of canopy goals which is frequently posted before downsizing....

__

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Since I know you, I'll comment. Dude!! what the fuck! who's telling you to jump a 120? :P

There are a few things you and I should go over. You have a prime canopy on your back to learn a ton of stuff. Back spins, stalls, accuracy, and swooping. Ask a certain Blonde... ok not blonde at the moment, and very pierced person about the back spins... You DON'T want to miss out on it. Seriously...B|

I do believe you can deal with the 120. What I also feel is, it's like sink or swim. Come follow me into the Grape stakes in lodi some day ;) You'll understand what I mean real quick =8^)

OK... with that said... If you're set on getting the canopy any way, I'll help you learn to fly it. You've always demonstrated good sense in your canopy control as far as i've seen so just learn methodically. I can push the limits because I worked up to it. There were a few occasions where I pushed to far, too soon, and just plain ole got lucky! You'll do that too, but we can minimize some of the need for luck.

Now, given the choices you mention, the 120 will fly well and land well. It turns pretty quick so I think you'l like it. If it's used, go jump it first or make me do it this saturday. It seems that the cobalts at our dz open nicely so make sure the 120 in question is one of them.

I nearly forgot to ask. How used are the canopies? How new are the lines?

Ciao
Tim
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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I have never jumped a stilleto. I must one day for sure. The stilleto has been around for while, one of the first HP ellipticals. The cobalt really isn't that new either. Just design and construction refinements to the Viper or space or......
I like the way my two cobalts open, they don't open the same they do have separate personalities.
The stilleto has a reputation for soft openings, fast turns and deep powerful flares from small toggle strokes.
I love the flare of the cobalt. It is reported to have a lighter front riser pressure than a stilleto and not to be as quick turning for the same given toggle input. The cobalt will dive longer than the stilleto.
I have never spun up a stilleto BUT I have spun up my cobalts on deployment. Of the three times that I have spun them up beyond six or so turns the canopy kept on flying straight and level. This is not a trait the stilleto is known for.
They are in the same category but they handle a bit different. It comes down to what you want to do with it. The only way to know is to demo them both. And then several hundred jumps later when you have had a chance to really see what these things can do for you review again your desires, abilities and the proper tool for your needs. Not the hype, the trends but the true performance and balance that with what you really need.

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I have never spun up a stilleto BUT I have spun up my cobalts on deployment. Of the three times that I have spun them up beyond six or so turns the canopy kept on flying straight and level. This is not a trait the stilleto is known for.



Funny thing, I've cutaway 1 and 1/2 line twists 2 times. I've had 5 PLUS line twist a fair number of times and it flew straight.
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And Hookitt, what are back spins?



Stall the canopy and let one toggle up and hold one down, it will fall off backwards and spiral in reverse... Go ahead... try it on your cobalt ;)

(just so I don't get in trouble for bad advice... don't really try a back spin on your cobalt )
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Cobalt will typically have slower staged openings, although a good stilleto opens well also.

Cobalt has lighter riser pressure (swooping) I don't think you are there yet, and it has a little more botom end. They both have very flat glides and the cobalt does fly big, but the cobalt can also be kept in a dive longer if youstay on the front risers

Although I am a Cobalt guy I would not downsize so much. Jump the 135...later when you are ready you can always demo a smaller cobalt.

ramon
"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

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I went from a Sabre 170 to a Cobalt 135 at 200 jumps and found the transition very easy and intuitive. However, I had studied, read, asked, practised and done absolutely everything on my Sabre and was bored with it. When I got on my 135 I went back to the start and learnt everything over again on the new canopy. I would say, if you're ready, go with the Cobalt. I reckon you're better off learning to fly a canopy that dives more; as all modern HP elliptical canopies these days are designed to do. Stilletos are old technology. I think a Cobalt is a very smooth, easy to fly, intuitive canopy. I liken it to (and I'm not claiming this analogy; I think it's been likened this way before) doing 80mph in an old car. It feels fast, jittery and scary. But do 80 mph in a modern car and it feels smooth and controllable.

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I reckon you're better off learning to fly a canopy that dives more; as all modern HP elliptical canopies these days are designed to do. Stilletos are old technology..... ....It feels fast, jittery and scary



Do you have much time under a Stiletto?
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Do you have much time under a Stiletto?



Very little. And it's been a long time since I flew one. I am going on my personal experience. While my first Cobalt was on the way I flew a 135 Stilleto a few times. I felt quite nervy on it at the time. So much so that I wondered if I was in fact stupid to have ordered a 135 elliptical. But when my Cobalt arrived and I flew it, as I said, it felt a very natural, intuitive and easy transition. Also, interestingly, I know and know of many who fly highly loaded Crossfires, Samurais, Cobalts etc but I don't know anyone keen on highly loaded Stilletos. That's gotta say something.
But indeed, at this stage I must again borrow and jump a few other canopies to extend, refine, confirm or amend my current judgement.

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Also, interestingly, I know and know of
many who fly highly loaded Crossfires, Samurais, Cobalts etc but I don't know anyone keen on highly loaded
Stilletos. That's gotta say something.



1.7 loaded Stiletto.

I found the Cobalt to be junk. Opened hard (unless I got a new PC for my rig....Funny the Stiletto opened great with the same PC?).

It did fly OK, but don't confuse "It flies bigger" with "Its not as fast" It did flair ok...Not really any different than my Stiletto.

I am sure both can be good canopies, but I have never jumped a Stiletto that had bad habits...I have jumped Cobalts that did.

Its hard to beat PD's consistancy. Two new Stilettos will fly very much the same...I can't say that for any other manufactorer.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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--->Old but still good,
I occasionally run into canopy pilots on stiletto's that shame pilots on more modern canopies.

Just because a design is old doesnt make it junk.....

I do admit I am biased:P.... I have 1200 jumps on stiletto's with wingloadings from 1.2 to 1.6
If I didnt get such a good deal on this icarus of mine, I would probably still be jumping PD.....

--<>--

--->The stiletto is very intolerant of bad body position... the newer canopies are more forgiving if this is an issue...
Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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Ok.. Thanks

The stiletto is responsive which is why you felt it to be twitchy. It turns when you ask it too, whether you meant to or not.

My average wingload was about 1.7 to 1.8 on a 97 stiletto. It was smooth fun and landed well. I've loaded it up considerably more. Not as nice of landing characteristics over loading it like that but still do able if you don't go for it too hard.

It was an easier transition mostly because it simply wasn't as quick to respond to toggle input as a stiletto. To get the same type of performance from the Cobalt I had to load the heck out of it. It handled the wingload just fine but the inflight characteristics of a stiletto is GRAND!!!

I have to get my ass to work so I can't finish my thought. right now.

Cheers.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Do you have much time under a Stiletto?



I know and know of many who fly highly loaded Crossfires, Samurais, Cobalts etc but I don't know anyone keen on highly loaded Stilletos.



If you're going to wing load beyond about 1.6-1.7 pounds per square foot (depending on elevation), you'll have more pleasant stall speeds, longer swoops, and maybe a better glide from something else.

Up to that point, a lot of us believe that the Stiletto's overall package (responsiveness, control pressures, glide, opening firmness/consistancy, swoop length, etc) was unequaled until very recently (the Samurai beats it; Extreme FX, Crossfire, Vengance, Blade Runner, Jonathan, Batwing, etc. all fall short for different reasons).

A ten year old design holding up that long is impressive.

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There isn't anything wrong with Ravens, Sabres, or Stilettos. Each still offers the same level of performance it did when brand new; although newer designs have eclipsed all of these canopies especially when loaded more heavily.

Every one who is ready for an elliptical canopy should put some jumps on a Stiletto. If nothing else it will teach you to land a responsive canopy (I think FX 104s and Samurai 105s are easier to land than a Stiletto 120 at the same weight) when you still have some square footage over your head and provide a useful benchmark for comparison.

The one reservation I have about making an absolute recomendation is how it recovers from a dive. Newer designs take longer to come out and give you more lattitude in where you start. Many will stay in a nose-down attititude so where you finish is less critical. With the Stiletto, you will be in the habbit of starting lower, and may prefer to err towards the too low side because of the speed you loose if you finish your turn too high.

This is based on about 600 jumps on a Stiletto 120 @ 1.7-1.4 pounds/square foot (belly shrinking is good for hiking and dating but bad for wing loading); 20 on a Samurai 120 @ 1.7; 80 on a Samurai 105 @ 1.7; and a few on other ellipticals up to 1.9. Mostly at ~5000 feet MSL.

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the .... Crossfire .... all fall short for different reasons).


Can I ask why you thought the crossfire (2?) fell short?

I ask because I demod one recently and thought it was great and am inteested in any downsides people see.

My stilletto was loaded about 1.5 now about 1.25 (belly shrinkage:-) ) and I was on a variety of crossfires, 129, 119 and 109 @ ~1.8

I've yet to get on a stiletto smaller than 135 but I have put a number of jumps on a vengence 120 and 1 jump on a vengence 107 (I know 1 doesn't mean anthing esp. as all I did was fly it back and land.)

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the .... Crossfire .... all fall short for different reasons).


Can I ask why you thought the crossfire (2?) fell short?



Crossfire 1 - presumably the 2 is a different beast.

It's been a while, although IIRC it surrounded subjective control influences. Sensitivity, weight on the toggles/risers, etc. Swoop & bottom end flare were nice.

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Reading your profile (if it's accurate), I have about the same jumps as you and was also considering a very similar option. I demoed the stilleto 120 6 times yesterday and loved it. Two sizes down and elliptical is a big (and insanely fun) step but with the right coaching and training I believe it can be done.
This probably goes no where near helping you in your decision at all, I really just wanted to brag about my new canopy. Have fun and stay safe.

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COBALT 120 FOR SURE!!
The Cobalt will create more lift, it is superior in every way. You won't have to cut it away with line twists.
I bought a 95 and when I was looking for a 105 and after 100 jumps I want a smaller one.
Cobalts also have light front riser pressure which make nice carving turns easy and when you let up it levels out very quickly.

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