jumperconway 0 #1 October 23, 2003 Interesting conversation. I took a wind meter up Sunday because someone wanted to compare there reading with mine. My Xaos 27-83'(2.29/1) in full flight was reading 30mph pointed straight ahead without taking into effect the angle of attack(which I'm not sure mattered). He flies a very conservative wing load, maybe 1.1/1 Triathlon or Sabre and said he got a reading of 25mph. That seems awfull close to me. Any comments? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miami 0 #2 October 23, 2003 How many jumps did you make with the windmeter? How do you collect the data...holding it in your hand or do you have it mounted somewhere on your rig/risers?Miami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #3 October 23, 2003 Just 1 and yes held straight out in front of my face. I don't know if it would have read differently if I would've angled it down at my angle of attack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #4 October 23, 2003 Quotestraight out in front of my face. Not good, you'll get flow restriction from your head, risers and slider. Maybe raise it high above your head, and make sure its horizontal to get horizontal speed. If you angle it to match the angle of your flight, you should get your total speed. If you angle it vertically, you'll get your decent rate, but then you'll be in one massive are of air restriction with the canopy above and your body below. Also, make multiple readings to make sure you're not getting an anomalyRemster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Professor 0 #5 October 23, 2003 I'm really surprised at the readings you got. I've done exactly the same thing w/ my stiletto 120@~1.9, and I got a reading of 39 mph pointing it along the line of flight (as best I could). I would think that the Xaos would go a lot faster than the stiletto. Ted Like a giddy school girl. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #6 October 23, 2003 I was holding it 2' out in front of my face. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #7 October 23, 2003 wouldnt this be easier to do with GPS? --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #8 October 23, 2003 Quotewouldnt this be easier to do with GPS? Or a cop and a radar gun?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #9 October 23, 2003 GPS will give you ground speed. If you fly into the wind, then downwind and average the two, you'll get your airspeed. I'm not surprised the brakes released, not turns speed isn't all that different. The real difference is top speed. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #10 October 23, 2003 Derek, The ground speed would change going up or down wind but your airspeed would remain the same because of the relative wind would it not? QuoteGPS will give you ground speed. If you fly into the wind, then downwind and average the two, you'll get your airspeed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #11 October 23, 2003 QuoteThe ground speed would change going up or down wind but your airspeed would remain the same because of the relative wind would it not? Correct. Let's say that the canopy has an airspeed of 35 mph, but we don't know this, yet. We take up a GPS and fly into the wind with the canopy stabilized (it has recovered from any inputs and is flying straight, etc). The GPS says our speed (ground speed) is 30 mph. We turn 180-degress, so that we are flying downwind, allow the canopy to stabilize, and the GPS says our speed is 40 mph. 40 mph - 30 mph = 10 mph. 10 mph/2=5 mph. The wind speed is 5 mph and the canopy's airspeed is 35 mph. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #12 October 24, 2003 One of the canopy manufactuers rep said here on dropzone that the difference in steady state airspeed between one canopy and another of a similar size isn't that great, even if they are of vastly different designs. I forget who it was, sorry. The design parameters like line trim that control what pitch ( and speed ) the canopy flies at and others that effect how fast it turns, what altitude is lost in a turn and the speed during and following the turn could be very different. Just as how far and deep a canopy dives and how it recovers from a dive that define a design. I have flown in tight formations ( no contact crew )made up of docile 7-cells, HP 9-cell ellipticals and ground hungry x-braced of similar but not exacting size and once we were at steady state similar glide paths the airspeeds were very close. Our jumpsuits were having a noticable effect on the varing airspeeds. Whether one of us was wearing a baggy freefly suit or a tight fitting RW suit or just shorts and a tee. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumperconway 0 #13 October 24, 2003 GPS will give you ground speed. If you fly into the wind, then downwind and average the two, you'll get your airspeed. That's what I meant. you said airspeed and I think you meant ground speed! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumperconway 0 #14 October 24, 2003 my canopy in full glide passes other canopies like they are standing still and i'm losing altitude like no tommorrow! Only in brakes(me) do we fly relative under canopy! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #15 October 24, 2003 QuoteThat's what I meant. you said airspeed and I think you meant ground speed! No, I meant airspeed. You can determine the airspeed of a canopy using the method I described, comparing ground speeds into the wind and downwind. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumperconway 0 #16 October 24, 2003 Quote One of the canopy manufactuers rep said here on dropzone that the difference in steady state airspeed between one canopy and another of a similar size isn't that great, even if they are of vastly different designs. sorry but they were FOS The design parameters like line trim that control what pitch ( and speed ) the canopy flies at and others that effect how fast it turns, what altitude is lost in a turn and the speed during and following the turn could be very different. Just as how far and deep a canopy dives and how it recovers from a dive that define a design. Have you never flown a really(loaded) HP crossbraced canopy? I have flown in tight formations ( no contact crew )made up of docile 7-cells, HP 9-cell ellipticals and ground hungry x-braced of similar but not exacting size and once we were at steady state similar glide paths the airspeeds were very close. And the X-braced was in deep brakes while the others were in full flight? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #17 October 24, 2003 >sorry but they were FOS Tell PD that. http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/wingload.pdf Wing loading is the biggest determinant of speed. A Stiletto 190 is not really faster than a Sabre 190, or even a PD 190! Other aspects of performance will be different, however. (Turn rate, glide angle, etc.) These differences may influence a person’s impression of speed. There is a maximum speed for every canopy in normal flight, the difference between the fastest canopy and the slowest canopy are closer then most people think. At what speed wind will each canopy fail to gain ground? This is a simple way to see the max speed. Even student canopies loaded very lightly can get drive in 15-17 mph winds. Very few canopies can out drive a 30 mph wind. I'm yet to see some one try and land one in anything over that with out hook turning it first to get increased speed. So thats only a difference of 13-15 mph from a student canopy to a super high loaded HP canopy.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #18 October 24, 2003 QuoteOne of the canopy manufactuers rep said here on dropzone that the difference in steady state airspeed between one canopy and another of a similar size isn't that great, even if they are of vastly different designs. sorry but they were FOS The design parameters like line trim that control what pitch ( and speed ) the canopy flies at and others that effect how fast it turns, what altitude is lost in a turn and the speed during and following the turn could be very different. Just as how far and deep a canopy dives and how it recovers from a dive that define a design. Have you never flown a really(loaded) HP crossbraced canopy? I have flown in tight formations ( no contact crew )made up of docile 7-cells, HP 9-cell ellipticals and ground hungry x-braced of similar but not exacting size and once we were at steady state similar glide paths the airspeeds were very close. And the X-braced was in deep brakes while the others were in full flight? Your experiment backs up the concept that there isn't that much difference in airspeed between canopies in steady state flight. The real difference is in maximum speed and rate of descent in a dive. Even my VX-60 isn't much faster than other canopies. I have to be way above them and dive to gain speed to catch them quickly, otherwise it is a slow catch-up game. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #19 October 24, 2003 >sorry but they were FOS Somehow I knew somebody would say this. >Have you never flown a really(loaded) HP >crossbraced canopy? No I've never flown any crossbraced canopy. I know that some are trimmed to a pitch down steady flight compared to most canopys though. > And the X-braced was in deep brakes while the >others were in full flight? No the x-braced ( velocity )was in rear risers but not that much. Velocity @ 2:1, x-fire @ 1.8, ( Both 90 something square footish), Cobalt @1.6, spectre @ 1.3 ( both canopys 120 sqft.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Hooknswoop 19 #11 October 23, 2003 QuoteThe ground speed would change going up or down wind but your airspeed would remain the same because of the relative wind would it not? Correct. Let's say that the canopy has an airspeed of 35 mph, but we don't know this, yet. We take up a GPS and fly into the wind with the canopy stabilized (it has recovered from any inputs and is flying straight, etc). The GPS says our speed (ground speed) is 30 mph. We turn 180-degress, so that we are flying downwind, allow the canopy to stabilize, and the GPS says our speed is 40 mph. 40 mph - 30 mph = 10 mph. 10 mph/2=5 mph. The wind speed is 5 mph and the canopy's airspeed is 35 mph. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #12 October 24, 2003 One of the canopy manufactuers rep said here on dropzone that the difference in steady state airspeed between one canopy and another of a similar size isn't that great, even if they are of vastly different designs. I forget who it was, sorry. The design parameters like line trim that control what pitch ( and speed ) the canopy flies at and others that effect how fast it turns, what altitude is lost in a turn and the speed during and following the turn could be very different. Just as how far and deep a canopy dives and how it recovers from a dive that define a design. I have flown in tight formations ( no contact crew )made up of docile 7-cells, HP 9-cell ellipticals and ground hungry x-braced of similar but not exacting size and once we were at steady state similar glide paths the airspeeds were very close. Our jumpsuits were having a noticable effect on the varing airspeeds. Whether one of us was wearing a baggy freefly suit or a tight fitting RW suit or just shorts and a tee. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #13 October 24, 2003 GPS will give you ground speed. If you fly into the wind, then downwind and average the two, you'll get your airspeed. That's what I meant. you said airspeed and I think you meant ground speed! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #14 October 24, 2003 my canopy in full glide passes other canopies like they are standing still and i'm losing altitude like no tommorrow! Only in brakes(me) do we fly relative under canopy! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #15 October 24, 2003 QuoteThat's what I meant. you said airspeed and I think you meant ground speed! No, I meant airspeed. You can determine the airspeed of a canopy using the method I described, comparing ground speeds into the wind and downwind. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #16 October 24, 2003 Quote One of the canopy manufactuers rep said here on dropzone that the difference in steady state airspeed between one canopy and another of a similar size isn't that great, even if they are of vastly different designs. sorry but they were FOS The design parameters like line trim that control what pitch ( and speed ) the canopy flies at and others that effect how fast it turns, what altitude is lost in a turn and the speed during and following the turn could be very different. Just as how far and deep a canopy dives and how it recovers from a dive that define a design. Have you never flown a really(loaded) HP crossbraced canopy? I have flown in tight formations ( no contact crew )made up of docile 7-cells, HP 9-cell ellipticals and ground hungry x-braced of similar but not exacting size and once we were at steady state similar glide paths the airspeeds were very close. And the X-braced was in deep brakes while the others were in full flight? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #17 October 24, 2003 >sorry but they were FOS Tell PD that. http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/wingload.pdf Wing loading is the biggest determinant of speed. A Stiletto 190 is not really faster than a Sabre 190, or even a PD 190! Other aspects of performance will be different, however. (Turn rate, glide angle, etc.) These differences may influence a person’s impression of speed. There is a maximum speed for every canopy in normal flight, the difference between the fastest canopy and the slowest canopy are closer then most people think. At what speed wind will each canopy fail to gain ground? This is a simple way to see the max speed. Even student canopies loaded very lightly can get drive in 15-17 mph winds. Very few canopies can out drive a 30 mph wind. I'm yet to see some one try and land one in anything over that with out hook turning it first to get increased speed. So thats only a difference of 13-15 mph from a student canopy to a super high loaded HP canopy.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #18 October 24, 2003 QuoteOne of the canopy manufactuers rep said here on dropzone that the difference in steady state airspeed between one canopy and another of a similar size isn't that great, even if they are of vastly different designs. sorry but they were FOS The design parameters like line trim that control what pitch ( and speed ) the canopy flies at and others that effect how fast it turns, what altitude is lost in a turn and the speed during and following the turn could be very different. Just as how far and deep a canopy dives and how it recovers from a dive that define a design. Have you never flown a really(loaded) HP crossbraced canopy? I have flown in tight formations ( no contact crew )made up of docile 7-cells, HP 9-cell ellipticals and ground hungry x-braced of similar but not exacting size and once we were at steady state similar glide paths the airspeeds were very close. And the X-braced was in deep brakes while the others were in full flight? Your experiment backs up the concept that there isn't that much difference in airspeed between canopies in steady state flight. The real difference is in maximum speed and rate of descent in a dive. Even my VX-60 isn't much faster than other canopies. I have to be way above them and dive to gain speed to catch them quickly, otherwise it is a slow catch-up game. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #19 October 24, 2003 >sorry but they were FOS Somehow I knew somebody would say this. >Have you never flown a really(loaded) HP >crossbraced canopy? No I've never flown any crossbraced canopy. I know that some are trimmed to a pitch down steady flight compared to most canopys though. > And the X-braced was in deep brakes while the >others were in full flight? No the x-braced ( velocity )was in rear risers but not that much. Velocity @ 2:1, x-fire @ 1.8, ( Both 90 something square footish), Cobalt @1.6, spectre @ 1.3 ( both canopys 120 sqft.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #17 October 24, 2003 >sorry but they were FOS Tell PD that. http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/wingload.pdf Wing loading is the biggest determinant of speed. A Stiletto 190 is not really faster than a Sabre 190, or even a PD 190! Other aspects of performance will be different, however. (Turn rate, glide angle, etc.) These differences may influence a person’s impression of speed. There is a maximum speed for every canopy in normal flight, the difference between the fastest canopy and the slowest canopy are closer then most people think. At what speed wind will each canopy fail to gain ground? This is a simple way to see the max speed. Even student canopies loaded very lightly can get drive in 15-17 mph winds. Very few canopies can out drive a 30 mph wind. I'm yet to see some one try and land one in anything over that with out hook turning it first to get increased speed. So thats only a difference of 13-15 mph from a student canopy to a super high loaded HP canopy.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #18 October 24, 2003 QuoteOne of the canopy manufactuers rep said here on dropzone that the difference in steady state airspeed between one canopy and another of a similar size isn't that great, even if they are of vastly different designs. sorry but they were FOS The design parameters like line trim that control what pitch ( and speed ) the canopy flies at and others that effect how fast it turns, what altitude is lost in a turn and the speed during and following the turn could be very different. Just as how far and deep a canopy dives and how it recovers from a dive that define a design. Have you never flown a really(loaded) HP crossbraced canopy? I have flown in tight formations ( no contact crew )made up of docile 7-cells, HP 9-cell ellipticals and ground hungry x-braced of similar but not exacting size and once we were at steady state similar glide paths the airspeeds were very close. And the X-braced was in deep brakes while the others were in full flight? Your experiment backs up the concept that there isn't that much difference in airspeed between canopies in steady state flight. The real difference is in maximum speed and rate of descent in a dive. Even my VX-60 isn't much faster than other canopies. I have to be way above them and dive to gain speed to catch them quickly, otherwise it is a slow catch-up game. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #19 October 24, 2003 >sorry but they were FOS Somehow I knew somebody would say this. >Have you never flown a really(loaded) HP >crossbraced canopy? No I've never flown any crossbraced canopy. I know that some are trimmed to a pitch down steady flight compared to most canopys though. > And the X-braced was in deep brakes while the >others were in full flight? No the x-braced ( velocity )was in rear risers but not that much. Velocity @ 2:1, x-fire @ 1.8, ( Both 90 something square footish), Cobalt @1.6, spectre @ 1.3 ( both canopys 120 sqft.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
