Downsizing keeps you Sharp!

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Andy made a fantastic analogy in my opinion. If you know you are throwing a motorcycle into a turn too fast you can slow down. You get exactly the opposite on a botched canopy turn; there is no slowing down....only speeding up. Like the original poster, I have been on a motorcycle since I could say the word, but that does not mean that I was ever able to fully exploit every single motorcycle I ever rode to its maximum potential. The worse I ever balled up a motorcycle was doing a 4th gear wheelie on a CR 500 Elsinore, but that doesn't mean that I couldn't ride the hell out of it. It was just WAY more motorcycle than I could properly exploit at my body size and currency. I was much better off on my YZ 250 as I could throw it around much easier and was comfortable with it at its perfomance limit. Did the CR 500 keep me on my toes? You bet, but I was a better rider and could do more radical shit on the "slower" bike.

I have regularly jumped canopies as small as 65 square feet, but found out that after a certain point you just reach a point of diminishing returns. I gave back the 65, ended up giving back a 75, then settled on a 79, though I am sure I would get better competition results under an 84. The point here is that while smaller might be faster, it's certainly not "better" if you are not able to get the desired performance out of it.

Chuck

[freakydiver 0]

I'm not offended but I'd disagree. I think the only thing that keeps anyone sharp with respect to any skydiving discipline is repetition i.e. currency and lots of it.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[packerboy 3]

Maybe you will look sharp to the untrained eye when you come in under a puny canopy. However, I guarantee you that your fellow experienced jumpers at your small dropzone talk behind your back about how you will become the next incident report. I know this because I come from a small dropzone with a casual jumper with the same attitude. At my dropzone, people also tell this guy in person that they believe he is getting lucky time and time again and eventually his luck will run out. I hope for yours and others sake that there is someone at your dropzone (hopefully your DZO) who will be frank enough to let you know what you are doing face to face. Perhaps it won't sink in by listening to nameless faceless persons telling you online.

BTW, noone looks cool with their femur protruding from their left lung. Please don't prove me right!

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[jsaxton 0]

So what do you thing is a better measure of when to downsize, years or jumps? Sure you took 8 years and 1000 jumps but I felt (along with the agreement of my S&TA) pretty confident going to a 150 after about 2 years in the sport, then again I'm making 350-500 jumps a year. My point is that currency can also be a factor in deciding when it is safe to downsize.

[trigger 0]

No disrespect...But well started riding bikes young but as i'll freely admit i have nowhere near your biking resume nor did i have your LUCK with regards to biking accidents[wrote off one GSXR750M head on with a car(don't worry i was fine bike trashed)..IOM TT 1992 I think...GSXR750WN (liked the oil cooled M model better.The power dilivery was alot rawer and a twitchy frame set fuck that bike kept you sharp)slid off at Ramsey hair pin (Diesel spill) anyway had a few get offs

But IMO what the[Mind my french]F!*K has riding motorcycles got to do with skydiving and more specifically to your thread,canopy contol with regards to down sizing...
You obviously came up in motorcycling with a good mentor to guide you and teach you how to control both the bike and it's power.
But unless your totally blessed downsizing in the way that you suggest,for what so you can go faster on your straight in approaches to stay sharp.
Nothing personal intended,but unless you can complete everything on Billvons list and in the highperformance class canopies IMO consistently cut grass with your toenails whilst carving,you probably have no buisness in downsizing or changing canopy planform.BTW I'm calling my present canopy my 1000 jump canopy only 800 to go

Edited to add...[SHOULD POSTED THIS ON TALKBACK]But with motorcycles,did i upsize to quickly?,They certainly kept me sharp Volvo hiding behind every lamp post!

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[Spizzzarko 0]

This whole thing sounds like someone just trying to get attention. This dude has already made his decision to fly something probably out of his league. This shoud all be referenced when we read his sad saga of recovery in the incidents forum. So bad on me for feeding this troll.

[murps2000 86]

I don't mean to fill this thread with our catching up, but yes, you read right. Actually this does pertain to this thread. 1000 jumps, probably 200 of them clear & pulls, finally own a x-brace, and I'm still not quite at 2:1 wing loading. You guys in Salisbury saw me doing several 360 approaches last year on the Splatwing 134. More than a few people told me I was ready to downsize. I wrung every last bit of speed out of that crusty thing that it would give & still put another 150 or so jumps on it just to be sure. Sure, it was boring at times, but you guys saw me get in the corner a time or two with it, as well, and it was nice to have a few extra sq. ft. at times like that. Isn't that what this is really about? I mean whether a canopy is appropriate for me or not is ultimately determined by how well it can get me out of a jam when I've f---ed up flying it, not by how much it keeps me "on my toes". It's for that reason that I've had to devote some jumps toward braked, straight in approaches with this new canopy. That FX is perfect for me at this time. At the top end, it's faster than anything I've flown, at the bottom end, I'm quite confident that I could stuff it in a back yard, and shut it down in as little as thirty feet with no wind. And I expect that it will continue to challenge me well into 2005. As for the batwing, well no one wants to buy it, so I guess I can still use it for demos at night...

And as for the originator of this thread, I don't know you, and I've never seen you jump, so I'm in no position to question your expertise under your Velo. Maybe you've devoted every shred of your time jumping to canopy flight, maybe you're blessed with a high degree of innate talent for swooping, and maybe you're very advanced for your jump numbers. But if I'm not mistaken, you're also the same guy who was inquiring about how to properly set up for 270 approaches in another thread. My suggestion would be to get back on your heatwave and figure it out.

[yarik 0]

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Billvon's tasklist

Thanks for the hand. I find this task list interesting and good reference before going down. One question - about accuracy - is it applicable to all wingloads? How do you do it on high loaded canopy?
I used to do a lot of accuracy some years ago on large 7 cells, but smaller 9 cells don't fly with little airspeed. On my previous heatwave 150 loaded at 1.2 I tried and successfully did approach in half brakes for accuracy and it worked out pretty well with flare and soft landing. Didn't try it yet on my current Hw 135 at 1.37 and not sure if it's safe thing to do. The smaller you go the more airspeed you need. Or it's just a general rule - you can do it at full glide but you've gota get within 10 meters? Any thoughts on that? I appreciate accuracy a lot due to it's importance for off field landings and want to master it along with learning to swoop the wing at high priority.

[grega 0]

same with 45 degree turn during the flare.
I don't think that is doable on wingloadings 1 or less for example.

Or is it? I don't know because i never tried doing 520 front riser approach on student canopy loaded 0.8

"George just lucky i guess!"

[yarik 0]

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As to the main thread - downsizing will keep you sharp (or scared) for sure, but I personally disagry that downsizing can contribute to safety by any means...

Unless I misunderstood his meaning he didn't say that it would contribute to safety. He did say that it would keep you sharp. I believe that they are not necessarily inclusive ideas.

Actually what NCS whas saying that

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bordom under canopy makes for poor decision making and the taking of un-nessesary risks.

Which I uderstood as "downsizing to avoid bordom will protect you from poor decision making and taking un-nessesary risks and thus will contribute to safety"
Sorry if I got it wrong, English isn't my mom's tongue so please feel free to correct me :)

[michaelflying 0]

I agree but what happens when are on the smallest canopy you can jump then what?
I have just downsized and know what you are on about.

www.skydivekzn.co.za

[skygod7777 0]

i've always looked at it as can i bring it straight in and hit the center of the pea's, can i hook it, swoop and stop in the center, and can i bring it in in half brakes and land in the center of the peas.

the last one is kinda hard on the legs, but on a smaller canopy you need to know how to stop the forward movement if you have to land in someone back yard. this is why i like doing high altitude hop n' pops and fly around with larger canopies, it lets me know my canopy in slow flight.

later

[davelepka 4]

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I am proud father and I recently sold my R1 because I found myself getting board of it. Every ride seemed to end up in being chased by the police and I know at 250 - 300kms/hr
================================

I would question your desicion making process in any area after reading this statement. As a father, why would you put yourself in that position?

I'm sorry but I havn't found a canopy that I would be happy with for 500 or 1000 jumps.
==================================

After putting 2000+ jumps on the same model canopy, I can tell you that your statement is the result of a lack of expereince, and a lack of understanding of the potential of a modern HP canopy. With the ever changing wind and weather conditions, it takes 1000 jumps at a variety of DZ's in a variety of weather to really know your canopy. Your line of thinking is not right, and poor desicion making such as this has lead to many serious injuries and fatalities. Your canopy is there to save your life, entertaining you is a secondary function. By putting one before the other you are putting your safety at risk.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

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Billvon's tasklist

Thanks for the hand. I find this task list interesting and good reference before going down. One question - about accuracy - is it applicable to all wingloads?

It's applicable to any canopy you might land out (IOW, all of them).

Quote

How do you do it on high loaded canopy?

I like a carving 90 degree swoop. If I'm going to overshoot a little, I'll get into a low daffy or pull my legs up to gain ground clearance, sink down, and pop it up to kill my speed at the end. Real long I curve the approach. Short, I'll stay high and fly it until I run out of airspeed. It's pretty easy to be within an inch or two of where you want left/right. Length is harder, although stopping within a 30' diameter circle is not hard when you're familiar with a DZ's visual cues, and when more current my error decreases to a few feet. 1.9 is the highest wing loading I've played with, although I'd expect the same to work going even faster.

Full-flight approaches on symetric front risers or straight in work too. I've also done deep brake approaches under my Samurai 105 (currently 1.6) and flared from less than full flight, although returning to full speed here really makes it easier to get a comfortable landing.

[webracer 0]

NewClearSports:
Your post showing motorcycle experience does nothing to strengthen your argument, but does indicate something of your personality. You want more before you can handle what you've got.
I guarantee you didn't get even half the performance out of the VR500 that it is capable of. If you were that much of a natural, you'd have made a good living at it.
It isn't wrong to want more before you're ready, but don't flaunt the idea.
I raced bikes starting with motocross as a kid, and finishing with many seasons in GP250. I know bikes. Your progression is not reasonable, and is fueled by your checkbook, not your experience.
I mean this in the most friendly way.
The fact you never got hurt on bikes is another indicator that you never really pushed it.
We cannot support your plea that downsizing for excitement keeps you sharp. It actually forces more attention out of you, and what happens when that attention is expended.... BANG, BIFF, BOOM!!!
You're messed up, or worse.
The fact that you have gotten away with it does not mean that you are safe, or getting more than 10% out of the canopy.
You are behind the curve my friend, It will hurt you if you persist.
Noone wants to see that, especially your kid(s).
Please rethink your position.

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[NewClearSports 0]

Guy who started this thread again
-Can you land in a 10 meter target circle reliably? >YES

-Can you land crosswind and in no wind? >YES I prefer Crosswind anyway – longer swoops.

-Can you land on uphill/downhill slopes? >YES

-Can you initiate a 90 degree flat turn at 50 feet and land safely? >YES I use the flat turn often, as Andyman says the Power comes on in the turns. If I decide to abort a swoop (which I do often) because of traffic or any other reason I go to the flat turn.

-Can you turn 45 degrees during the flare and land standing up? >NO There is one guy at our DZ that does this regularly, carve out his landings, he is amazing – I admit I need more practice for this one

-Can you land with rear risers? >YES I don’t yet use the technique for longer swoops, but I can land on rears if necessary.

-Can you make a double front riser/turning front riser approach? >YES all my swoops are carved with front risers and harness turns, I never hook it or toggle whip it, I believe that to be too dangerous.

Andyman

I think if your bikes automatically opened the throttle wide open each time you threw yourself into a corner, you would have a better understanding of why adding "power" under a canopy is so much riskier then adding "power" on a bike. On your bike, using that power is optional. Under a canopy, that "power" can come on when you least want it.

>I agree 100% - I think everyone must know this and understand it before ever downsizing. I hope that anyone thinking of downsizing knows that turning adds speed, power, and most importantly decent.

Treejumps
Why bother posting and asking questions since you already know everything.

>I never claimed to know everything – I started a discussion to learn more, through a thought out there and get various opinions.

SkymonkeyOne

I have regularly jumped canopies as small as 65 square feet, but found out that after a certain point you just reach a point of diminishing returns. I gave back the 65, ended up giving back a 75, then settled on a 79, though I am sure I would get better competition results under an 84. The point here is that while smaller might be faster, it's certainly not "better" if you are not able to get the desired performance out of it.

> OK – HERE IT IS – This is what I am talking about. SkymonkeyOne WHY DID YOU EVER BOTHER TO JUMP A 65 and 75 ??? You are saying right here that the 84 is probably the one for you. Jumping a 65 and 75 must have in some small way help you to dial in your current 79? And why now that your settled on the 79 do you believe that an 84 will get you better competition results?
All I am saying is that I believe that when you flew that 65 and 75 that it helped you develop or Sharpened new skills that you can apply to your 79.

Packerboy

Maybe you will look sharp to the untrained eye when you come in under a puny canopy. However, I guarantee you that your fellow experienced jumpers at your small dropzone talk behind your back about how you will become the next incident report.

> I sure hope not. I hope that if anyone from my local DZ thinks I’m flying recklessly or unsafely that they come and tell me right away. I think it is so important to talk to someone if they have done something stupid or unsafe before they even hit the packing area. I know I have been spoken to and I have also spoken to others.

Jsaxton

So what do you thing is a better measure of when to downsize, years or jumps?
My point is that currency can also be a factor in deciding when it is safe to downsize.

> Years – has no bearing. Jump numbers seems to be the norm, but it is not a very good way to decide in my opinion, Currency one of the most important, and Skill level also very important. I’m sorry I put my bike analogy in years, I just didn’t know how else to say it.


Spizzzarko

This whole thing sounds like someone just trying to get attention. This dude has already made his decision to fly something probably out of his league. This should all be referenced when we read his sad saga of recovery in the incidents forum. So bad on me for feeding this troll.

> This is the type of guy that gets under my skin – You just mention downsizing and he gets all worked up, like it’s the worst thing in the world to do. Even though we all do it, we all preach that it shouldn’t be done. There is one thing true about this that I did try to get attention with my “Downsizing keeps you sharp” quote. I knew that this would grab attention and I wanted to here several opinions on the topic of downsizing.

Murps2000

You guys in Salisbury saw me doing several 360 approaches last year on the Splatwing 134. More than a few people told me I was ready to downsize.

> Why 360s ?? How does this help to hone your skills? How does a 360 fit into a good traffic pattern? I hate it when people spiral down and don’t fly the pattern just to get down sooner and then end up landing the same time as me.
This brings me to my point – people that are bored under canopy fly stupid, they sashay around, spiral over the spectator area, do quick 360,s and basically just make it harder for me (The HP Pilot) to find a safe landing pattern. I sometime wish these jumpers with the big canopies playing stupidly over the landing area could take a ride under my canopy to understand why it is important to fly predictably, have a plan, and follow the landing pattern. Usually when people 1st downsize they go back to these basic principals.

And as for the originator of this thread, I don't know you, and I've never seen you jump, so I'm in no position to question your expertise under your Velo. Maybe you've devoted every shred of your time jumping to canopy flight, maybe you're blessed with a high degree of innate talent for swooping, and maybe you're very advanced for your jump numbers. But if I'm not mistaken, you're also the same guy who was inquiring about how to properly set up for 270 approaches in another thread. My suggestion would be to get back on your heatwave and figure it out.

> I have my 270’s pretty much dialled in. If you read the 270 discussions it came from a debate about the set up for a 270 with a left hand pattern at my local DZ. Weather Right or Left 270 is best? No I’m not an expert under my Velocity, but I did take a HP canopy control / Swoop course before every flying it. Whether people believe it or not, I am trying to be safe


Yaric

Unless I misunderstood his meaning he didn't say that it would contribute to safety. He did say that it would keep you sharp. I believe that they are not necessarily inclusive ideas.

> This is true. I did not say it would be safer to downsize, but it does make you go back to basics, fly reliably, predictably, and follow a pattern which will in the long run make it safer for the others flying around you.

[Treejumps 0]

Your response pretty much says it all- I already know everything and will do what I want. Don't say you weren't warned when you are looking up from you back with a bunch of people standing around you shaking their heads.

[davelepka 4]

***people that are bored under canopy fly stupid, they sashay around, spiral over the spectator area, do quick 360,s and basically just make it harder for me (The HP Pilot) to find a safe landing pattern. I sometime wish these jumpers with the big canopies playing stupidly over the landing area could take a ride under my canopy to understand why it is important to fly predictably,
===================================


Low canopy has the right of way. If you are swooping a 96, most canopies will be lower than you. There's more to flying a HP canopy than turning and flaring. It's having the foresight to monitor traffic, have a plan (and a back up) and be ready for it to all change at the last minute.

To compare to your motorcycle situation, if you make a mistake on the bike, you can always run form the cops. If you make a mistake on your canopy, you can't run from gravity.

Maybe you should consider that many of the people commenting on your situation have more jumps and more years in this than you. What does that mean? When I had 600 jumps, I was swooping a Sabre 107 (HP at the time) and thought I was knowledgeable, and in control. Years, and 1000's of jumps later, I can look back and see all that I didn't know. For than matter, I can look back at myself one year ago, and realize what I learned this past season. You can't look into the furture and see what you will learn, but if enough people who are there now, are telling you that you might be a little off in your thinking, why do you have so much trouble accepting that their point of view has validity.

I have seen the know-it-alls come and go. Some by their own choice, others forced out due to life altering injury. Are you one them? I don't know. Are you on your to becoming one of them? Possibly.

Good luck and safe swoops.

[twnsnd 1]

Everybody in this forum knows that posts like this always get the same response. If you can't take the crap, don't bring up these subjects. I'm jumping a 2-1 loaded fx at 500 jumps, and I can do everything on the task list, but you are not going to hear me trying to justify it on this forum.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[velo90 0]

I think most of the criticism is about NewClears way of thinking. As he said himself, he wanted to provoke with his subject header. It worked.
He is now just digging a deeper hole for himself by making wrong comparisons and giving bad reasons why he is jumping what he's jumping.

Dave

Edited to spell criticism correctly

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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SkymonkeyOne WHY DID YOU EVER BOTHER TO JUMP A 65 and 75 ??? You are saying right here that the 84 is probably the one for you. Jumping a 65 and 75 must have in some small way help you to dial in your current 79? And why now that your settled on the 79 do you believe that an 84 will get you better competition results?
All I am saying is that I believe that when you flew that 65 and 75 that it helped you develop or Sharpened new skills that you can apply to your 79.

I was jumping those smaller parachutes because I was a test jumper and sponsored team member for the company that was producing the canopies. In doing so I was testing the limits of their performance as it relates to performance swooping and general handling. The wings were totally safe, yet I found that my ability to get any distance out of that planform diminished very quickly at those smaller sizes and at my wingload. It was in that testing and evaluation context that I was jumping those mains. I competed for two years under one of that company's 75's.

When I went back to PD, I "thought" that the Velocity 75 would have been my best competition wing, but it was not. The next larger size, the 79 worked better. As it was the largest of my two Velo's, that is the one I compete under now. The smaller canopy was incredibly fast, but the payoff at the end was not enough to warrant the increased care needed to safely nagigate that canopy through a sky full of student traffic and gumby impersonators. I sent that 75 back and had them send me a Sabre2 97 for the times when I just don't need to be jumping my Velo.

Chuck

[Spizzzarko 0]

> This is the type of guy that gets under my skin – You just mention downsizing and he gets all worked up, like it’s the worst thing in the world to do. Even though we all do it, we all preach that it shouldn’t be done. There is one thing true about this that I did try to get attention with my “Downsizing keeps you sharp” quote. I knew that this would grab attention and I wanted to here several opinions on the topic of downsizing.


Look man,

I'm not all worked up over this. It looks like you have gotten your several opinions and the majority of them say that your logic is flawed. For the most part we don't care what you do, just don't hurt us in the process. Besides if you go in doing stupid shit then you make us all loke bad. Look at Dwain Weston.... Flying that close to the bridge could be catagorized as stupid shit. Did the Base community gain anything good out of it? NO!!! Look at Jan Davis at El Cap. Going in in front of god and country to protest that their sport should be legal in National parks. That set their cause back ten years at least... Not to pick on the base community to much.

Look at the guy doing the demo into the raceway in califronia who hooked it in in front of thousands of spectators.

These are decisions that these people made that adversly affect us all. I hope this doesn't "GET UNDER YOUR SKIN", but these are people with tons more experience than you, that is if your jump numbers are correct, who are all telling you that your thought process is fucked. I guess we all learn in our own way man.

[NewClearSports 0]

Everybody in this forum knows that posts like this always get the same response. If you can't take the crap, don't bring up these subjects. I'm jumping a 2-1 loaded fx at 500 jumps, and I can do everything on the task list, but you are not going to hear me trying to justify it on this forum.

I didn't know it. My 270 post was the 1st and I got some good ideas out of it. All I wanted was to here various opinions on downsizing. I should not have done the bike analogy, it just made it a much more personal issue toward me, I didn't want that. I just can't believe that out of all the jumpers here no one has anything good to say about downsizing. So why is it we are all not still jumping are student manta's?

Anyway sorry for stirring this whole thing up - From now on I will stick to getting advise from my friends and people that know me.

Cheers, blue skies

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

From now on I will stick to getting advise from my friends and people that know me.

Don't get bent out of shape just because people said things you didn't want to hear. What you heard was the cold hard truth of the matter. You have received advise from professional skydivers and subject matter experts in the sport. I doubt your friends or people that know you have the wealth of experience or knowledge that the people here gave you. Learn the easy way not the hard way. The hard way usually involves injury or death.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[quade 4]

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I just can't believe that out of all the jumpers here no one has anything good to say about downsizing.

Not true!

There are a few good reasons to downsize and not jump huge canopies -- just not the reason you posted.

If you're looking for people to simply agree with you to make you feel good about the decisions you've already made, you've come to the wrong place. We're definately not "yes men" here to give you a rubber stamp of approval.

If you're really interested in why certain things should or should not be done, then there are plenty of folks here with lots of experience from which you can benefit.

The choice is totally up to you.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver